Reformed Churchmen

We are Confessional Calvinists and a Prayer Book Church-people. In 2012, we remembered the 350th anniversary of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer; also, we remembered the 450th anniversary of John Jewel's sober, scholarly, and Reformed "An Apology of the Church of England." In 2013, we remembered the publication of the "Heidelberg Catechism" and the influence of Reformed theologians in England, including Heinrich Bullinger's Decades. For 2014: Tyndale's NT translation. For 2015, John Roger, Rowland Taylor and Bishop John Hooper's martyrdom, burned at the stakes. Books of the month. December 2014: Alan Jacob's "Book of Common Prayer" at: http://www.amazon.com/Book-Common-Prayer-Biography-Religious/dp/0691154813/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417814005&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+book+of+common+prayer. January 2015: A.F. Pollard's "Thomas Cranmer and the English Reformation: 1489-1556" at: http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Cranmer-English-Reformation-1489-1556/dp/1592448658/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420055574&sr=8-1&keywords=A.F.+Pollard+Cranmer. February 2015: Jaspar Ridley's "Thomas Cranmer" at: http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Cranmer-Jasper-Ridley/dp/0198212879/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422892154&sr=8-1&keywords=jasper+ridley+cranmer&pebp=1422892151110&peasin=198212879

Showing posts with label Calvinistic Anglican. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Calvinistic Anglican. Show all posts

Thursday, April 3, 2014

3 Apr 1593: Mr. (Rev.) George Herbert born in Calvinistic CoE (Oh no!)


3 April 1593.  Mr. (Rev.) George Herbert was born.  We also bring some quotes from Dr. Doerksen on Anglicanism and English Calvinism—that awful subject.  Oh no!  Not that, please!  What!?  Calvin’s volumes in translation found the largest market in England?  Positively disturbing!


We draw some quotes below re: George Herbert, Anglicanism and English Calvinism in the Elizabethan and Jacobean period. By way of background, George Herbert (3 April 1593 – 1 March 1633) was a Welsh poet, orator and Anglican priest. Being born into an artistic and wealthy family, he received a good education. He took prominent positions at Cambridge University and Parliament. As a student at Trinity College, Cambridge, England, George Herbert excelled in languages and music. After the death of King James and at the urging of a friend, Herbert's interest in ordained ministry was renewed. In 1630, in his late thirties he gave up his secular ambitions and took holy orders in the Church of England, spending the rest of his life as a rector of the little parish of Fugglestone St Peter with Bemerton St Andrew, near Salisbury...Herbert has a window honouring him in Westminster Abbey.

Now, for Dr. Doerksen's study.

Doerksen, Daniel W. "George Herbert, Calvinism, and Reading "Mattens." Christianity & Literature 59, no. 3 (Spring2010 2010): 437-451. Academic Search Premier, EBSCOhost (accessed November 14, 2010).

What you will not hear at many Anglican websites, blogs or news centers, p. 438.

"Historian Anthony Milton, in an important book on the Church of England from 1600-1640, defines English Calvinism as `a general sympathy with the continental Reformed tradition in all its purely doctrinal aspects, and a sense of identification with the West European Calvinist Churches and their fortunes' (8). This definition silently acknowledges that other writers, such as Bucer and Bullnger, and of course English ones, were influential in the movement. Milton also recognizes that Calvinism, like other aspects of the Early Modern Church of England, comprised a range of views, and changed as it developed. Milton's definition of Calvinism easily includes Herbert, who had an enduring `interest in the success of international Protestantism' (Malcolmson 21) - an interest not shared by the Laudians.' More specifically, English Calvinism had a doctrinal core of Protestant theology, emphasizing God's grace."

Oh no!  Can’t be. Calvin's works, the most popular books in England, the most dominant influence at Cambridge and Oxford. What you will not hear at most Anglican websites, blogs or news centers, said to include, but not limited to: David Virtue,
www.virtueonline.org,  Anglican Mainstream, BabyblueRose, GAFCON, Anglican Things, Stand Firm, Thinking Anglican, Old High Churchman, and a host of other sites including American ones--AMiA, ACNA, etc.


"According to Pettegree, a tally of the revised Short Title Catalogue of Books Printed in England, 1475-1640 indicates that English editions of Calvin's works "easily outstripped all other continental writers, and dwarfed the production of native English theologians" (281). Pettegree reports that Leedham-Green's substantial survey of books recorded in Cambridge wills, carefully analyzed, confirms `the preeminent position of Calvin as the dominant theological influence in Elizabethan England" (280). Also, he cites Francis Higman's bibliographical studies showing that England was `far and away the biggest market for Calvin's work in translation.' Calvin's Institutes and Catechism became required reading at the universities."

On the other hand, Calvinism and Episcopacy, something--indubitably--one does not hear from Dutch and Scots Calvinists in their forums. p.439  (Ditto from Anglican sources).  Back to Dr. Doerksen.

"Also, although Calvin had definite views on church structure, he did not insist that churches in Poland or England should give up episcopacy or adopt Genevan liturgy (Prestwich 2). Instead he recognized the Word preached and the Sacraments duly administered as the essentials of the church (as do the English 39 Articles), and said that other matters could be patterned differently in different nations and times {Inst. 4.10.30). Accordingly, Calvin's teachings were welcomed in England, where the leading clergy, and not just puritans, whole-heartedly accepted Calvinist theology. Still, some English clergy wanted to adopt Genevan liturgical or disciplinary practices. When Queen Elizabeth resisted such changes, puritans objected, and protested in varying degrees. Most, however, stayed within the Church of England, and when King James showed willingness to tolerate moderate puritans who were good preachers, they in turn were willing in varying degrees to accept the rule of bishops and to follow some of the Prayer Book practices. Some, like Richard Sibbes, conformed fully, in spite of their own preferences. Calvinists in the English church, both puritans and conformists, formed what has been called a `Calvinist consensus,' influential at the very center of the Jacobean church, but coming under attack by Laudians from the mid-1620s on."

Most Elizabethan and Jacobean Bishops were Calvinists in the main, excluded, 439. Positively horrifying news!

Historians have given much attention to the dissenting puritans but have tended to neglect the moderate Calvinist conformists or episcopalians in the church, who were happy with a combination of Calvinist theology, episcopacy, and Book of Common Prayer liturgy. This group included archbishops, many bishops (Collinson 82), and people like Herbert and Donne.'' Stanley Stewart correctly points out that Herbert differed from Calvin about Lent ("Priest" 169-71), without realizing that this does not make him an anti-Calvinist. Calvinist episcopalians, including most Elizabethan and Jacobean bishops, similarly agreed to differ with Calvin on a matter not of the essence, even if important. Calvin, as Donne knew, was a significantly undogmatic interpreter of scripture {Sermons 6.301).

In context, some authors, e.g. in literature and history, due to an abhorrence of Calvinism, attempt to claim there were no Calvinists in the Church of England, but Daniel Doerksen affirms otherwise, 440.

"...but that is not what the historians tell us; they affirm that all the post-Reformation Archbishops of Canterbury before Laud were doctrinally Calvinist. It is probably more useful to have `true Calvinism' defined by someone not vigorously opposing it. Young speaks of Calvinist `rigor' (10), and `the most extreme Reformation tenets' (35).Undoubtedly, some Calvinists were extreme, but the Calvinism relevant to Herbert is moderate. Calvin himself emphatically taught moderation (Wallace 170-92)."

In context of a larger analysis of George Herbert, the author draws this conclusion to his article, p.446.

"Herbert is an amazing poet, never to be explained away by any reference to the backgrounds on which he draws. However, this reading should open a few doors to further exploration. Taking its title from the Book of Common Prayer, and key elements of its substance from a reading of the Psalms and Genesis like Calvin's, `Mattens' demonstrates how well English Calvinism, properly understood, could be integrated in Herbert's Church of England."

Monday, September 17, 2012

An Anglican Cleric--Actually, Really-- Believes in Predestination

 
Life has simple surprises.  Here's another Anglican clergyman who--yes, sit down and take a deep breath--actually believes in Article 17 and Predestination.  Most of them, in my experience, wouldn't know or care about it much like other Reformation themes.  Nor would the parishioners, thanks to the clerics.  This Anglican clergyman actually says this: 

"Arminianism is a serious compromise of the gospel. It may not simply be erroneous but, when carefully analysed, be deemed to be heretical."
 
 
He actually said, "Heretical." 
 
Also, the highlight and bold in the text below is in the original. 

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=16518


ARTICLE XVII - PREDESTINATION: PASTORAL RATHER THAN POLEMICAL
By Roger Salter
Special to Virtueonline
www.virtueonline.org
Sept. 13, 2012

The purpose of Article XVII is primarily pastoral. The intention of the leaders of the English Reformation was to address the common people for the edification of the whole church rather than engage in speculative theology and disputation. They pursued their academic tasks in another context e.g. William Whitaker versus Peter Baro who objected to the doctrine of an unconditional election.

Their aim in the Article was to entice believers to an assurance and enjoyment of their God-appointed state of salvation through grace alone. Predestination was a definite truth of divine revelation to be humbly received, but it had practical implications that required wise counsel and sensitive guidance. It was not beyond the competence of the English Reformers to consider issues such as supra-lapsarianism versus infra-lapsarianism, or to weigh theories, later formulated logically in the 17th century by Amyraut and Pajon, as to the extent of the atonement or the nature of effective grace.

The English were as astute and as bold as their Continental confreres. Their priority was not to prove or debate predestination in the Augustinian sense for that was already agreed. Their aim was to propose and propound the security of the true believer in the love of Christ and promote the "sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort" the doctrine affords as the ground for its proclamation. It is an eternal election effected in and through Christ. Sovereign mercy is the theme. Before time was the "names" of the elect were associated with the Lord Jesus in the mind of God for prospective union with the Beloved, and when the time was right the Lord Jesus accomplished all that was necessary to re-unite the predestined ones with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit forever.

The way of salvation (or ordo salutis, as some folk prefer to say) as outlined in Romans 8:28-30 is repeated in the Article. The eternal decree is fulfilled in consecutive stages. Salvation, conceived in eternity, is wrought in time. The elect are called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and in due time glorified. The record of their election is sealed in the exercise of faith, the sanctification of their lives, and the witness of the Spirit - these signs are not always consciously recognized by believers.

The necessity for encouragement is ministered to in the second paragraph. The grace of God may be observed and felt in the life of the Christian if the conscience is kept clear and the course of life is lovingly obedient. There are of course pastoral situations that are more complicated where sensitive or disturbed minds are concerned, or inconsistencies of thought and behaviour are present. But confirmation of a gracious state is pledged to the careful enquirer: Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10).

Just as balm is applied to humble and believing souls so warnings are announced to irreverent and incautious persons who pry into into the eternal determinations of God. Christ is the focus of the elect and also the earnest enquirer. Humility is the approach to the secrets of the Lord - not attitudinal and intellectual hubris. Curiosity and pride become the tools of the devil in his onslaughts upon the soul causing desperation that engenders a sense of hopelessness and futility in spiritual matters or a daring in reckless godlessness. Forebodings derived from misreadings of providence or dark introspection are to be avoided. They are the snares of the evil one who knows only too well our susceptibilities and vulnerabilities.The Article's universal advice to folk in any condition is to look to Christ and appeal for his mercy with persistence and patience.

Casual speech or unfeeling, cold, and over-confident debate concerning election and reprobation are unseemly and potentially injurious. However, the doctrine is not to be concealed. It stimulates the fear and seeking of God. It confronts us with our helplessness and casts us upon God. It reinforces the fact that the central problem in the plight of man is his possession of a fallen will that is entirely and incurably averse and antipathetical to anything to do with God and his goodness apart from the unbidden intervention of grace.

Such an awareness necessitates an open acknowledgement of predestination if we are to encounter lost humanity on the basis of gospel candour. Biblical particularism exalts God's majesty and dominion over all things in a most salutary way. And although the election of grace highlights our wretchedness as guilty rebels before God it does not permit us to regard the ultimately reprobate as either identifiable or "trash".

Sometimes the doctrine of predestination seems to be interpreted as license to vent misanthropic sentiment or personal spiritual arrogance and superiority. Perdition is a tragedy given the human vocation to bear the image of God defaced in our fall. Charles Spurgeon makes it clear that the sentence of damnation will be uttered with divine respect for the creatures that veered away so seriously from their original purpose: "While I believe in eternal punishment, and must, or throw away my Bible, I also believe that God will give to the lost every consideration, consistent with his love. There is nothing vindictive in him, nor can there be in his punishment of the ungodly (Charles H. Spurgeon, London's Most Popular Preacher, W.Y. Fullerton, Moody Press, pages 151 - 152). "Lord", Spurgeon was heard to pray, "save your elect and then elect some more".

Article XV11 is directed to the hesitant who seek the infinite consolation of rescue through Christ and also to the hardened who are impervious to his overtures of compassion. It is not a guide to strictly dogmatic theology as such and a solution to even legitimate controversy. It establishes how Anglican pastors should preach and deal with precious souls. It is founded in Scriptural truth but it blends divine and human compassion for the lost by wooing the penitent and warning the impenitent. It urges us to an experiential knowledge of God and weans us away from the tendency to abstract theology void of humane concern. The tone is expressive of electing love, love that chooses. Its exhortation is empirical - are you receptive of or resistant to the mercy of God?

The imperfect understanding of the hesitant causes them to summon all the negatives they can think of to exclude themselves from the mercy of God. Their minds are still fixated on merit although they do not intend to be of that persuasion. They need to be educated in the thought patterns of Holy Scripture and come to agree with Blaise Pascal that if you desire God you already have him: "You would not seek me if you had not already found me." (The Mystery of Jesus). The powerful change of desire and affection that creates and disposes the will to know and trust Christ is the supernatural work of God in the hearts of the elect sovereignly selected and separated from the mass of sinful mankind. Prescience is not the ground for marking out certain ones for eternal life but the divine prerogative to favour whom he will (Acts 13:48).

As Augustine avers, the will has to be prepared for assent to Christ as Saviour prior to its volitional and free consent and then assisted all the way thereafter. Regeneration is the Spirit's sovereign deed. The consequence is that the predestined ultimately attain that for which the renewed heart intensely yearns. The non-elect manifest that they are such by their continued and final rejection of God. They spurn his grace, refusing what they do not desire (These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. John 5:40), and mock his justice, impugning unfairness to him and blaming him for the exercise of absolute sovereignty (One of you will say to me, "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will? Romans 9:19). The elect and the non-elect, determined by the will of God, gain exactly what they incline towards - the acceptance or absence of God. To describe the disposition of the elect and non-elect throughout the course of this life is no concession to Arminianism or conditional election. Nor is greater consistency in Biblical particularism gained through assuming Supra-lapsarianism, which may or may not be correct, but seems unlikely (See B.B. Warfield, The Plan of Salvation). Election and rejection in Scripture are always treated in relation to human sin and the remedy of the gospel. "Oh, how self-condemned must the man be who says that the gospel is true, and the gospel is free, and saying that, stays away from God." (John "Rabbi" Duncan).

"The obstinacy of men rejects the grace which has been provided, and which God willingly and bountifully offers" (John Calvin, Commentaries on the Twelve Minor Prophets, Calvin Translation Society: repr. Banner of Truth, 1986, vol 1, pp 476-7). The paradox in Scripture is that God selects whom he will favour and yet he still summons those whom he chooses to pass by (For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone. Ezekiel 18:32 cf 18:23, Do I take pleasure in the death of the wicked? & 33:11, As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn. Turn from your evil ways. Why will you die, O house of Israel? If it is pointed out that God is addressing Israel as his chosen we note Paul's observation that, "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel", Romans 9:6. See also Matthew 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem".  Arminianism is a serious compromise of the gospel. It may not simply be erroneous but, when carefully analysed, be deemed to be heretical. It diminishes the efficiency and sufficiency of the Lord Jesus, reducing his stature and accomplishment as almighty and reliable Redeemer. It touches negatively and disparagingly on so many vital points of soteriological doctrine as virtually to make man his own saviour if its assertions are to be taken seriously. Arminians themselves may be friends and worthy advocates of the gospel, as no doubt many of them are, but the opinions they espouse, when isolated and examined, are foes of the gospel of grace.

Simeon's famous rapport with Wesley is charitable and right in terms of Christian brotherliness, but alleged compatibility in doctrine seems to be based on the common confusion, twofold, of responsibility with ability, and the sincerity of the gospel offer with special grace that achieves its aim. It is gently, and not judgementally observed that due to the well-intentioned truce with Wesley the seepage of Simeonism has adversely affected the witness of Reformed Anglicanism, causing it to be more of a matter of private conviction rather than public proclamation. If Arminianism is, objectively and accurately, determined to be unscriptural and contrary to the doctrine of grace then can it be condoned by Anglicanism and its clergy who are instructed at ordination, "To banish and drive away all erroneous and strange doctrines contrary to God's Word" (The Ordinal)? According to Thomas Aquinas, a convinced predestinarian, those who teach others, "are bound to believe explicitly more things than others are".


The Rev. Roger Salter is an ordained Church of England minister where he had parishes in the dioceses of Bristol and Portsmouth before coming to Birmingham, Alabama to serve as Rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church

Tuesday, July 31, 2012

There's Another Reformed Anglican...Unbelievable!

Unbelievable, there really is—actually, there really is—another Reformed Anglican in America!  Reading this joyful post is like watching children grow up!  A few are beginning to mature and grow-up, no thanks to their Bishops it must be added.  No thanks to their seminaries.  Time for Bob Duncan, an ACNA cleric and Archbishop, to grow up and get a profound Reformed theological vision without the charismatic revivalists and without the anti-Reformed Tractarians.  But, Bob doesn’t have the depth or cajones to see beyond his significant limitations—and they are, indeed, serious.  Also, time for David Virtue, the alleged voice for "Orthodox Anglicanism" (www.virtueonline.org) to get off the dime and "get with the program."  He, like RA, rails against the braying asses in liberalism.  Fair enough.  We do too.  We've been in that war for 100 years, Virtue, thanks to Professor J. Gresham Machen. Old school Westminsterians have been in the long battle for decades. But, liberalism is an old story and it is time for American Anglicans to--sorta like--grow up. Additionally, it's time to push the Tractarians to where they belong...in the Continuum, not in Reformed and Reformational Anglicanism.  But, we have men with marshmellow stones.  It's time for Virtue to take the measure of his pitifully small gonads, get a theology, move on, get some Confessional depth and take some public and journalistic stands.  Perhaps, Jim Packer's anticipated Systematic Theology will lay down some territorial boundaries, like male dogs with lifted legs, justifiably, marking their territories.  Jim would be more polite.  Most others would prefer more dignified language. We apologize to the Brits and Canadians.  As an ex-Canadian, I understand the culture of compassion, politeness and dignity.  As for American mutants, phoohey onit.  More largely, screw it.  We're Marines and we're tired of the fudging weakness with the controlling and governing "wimp factor." Speaking of Tractarians, Jim's track record with Tractarians has been woefully weak.  The same for the ACNA and AMiA.  Own it, fellas, if ya' can.   Or, the charismatic Arminians with hothouse music. You're weak and disabled.  Admit it.  Get a pair and fix it. Get in a 12-step program and work the program with the first step, admitting you've been in deep denial and are helpless.  But this much, with the post below, we are thankful for even "this" small offering at Treading Grain. There really is a Calvinistic and Reformed Anglican.  There are few, but they exist.  Rev. Dr. Lee Gatiss at Peterhouse, Cambridge is another Reformed Prayer Book man.  There are few. We live in exile, but with faith, hope, learning and trust in His Dreaded Majesty. (The Reformed Episcopalians once were Reformed, but they've sold out and sponsor "babbling charismatics," saints-invokers, bloviating Tractarians like the APA-hustlers, along with repudiations of their heritage and the English Reformation, notwithstanding contrary protestations...they tolerate Tractarians.  Informed observers see it too. Give the salute to the honour-seeking Presiding REC Bishop, Leonard Riches, and the ever-changing chamelon (Fundamentalist, Dispensationalist, Presbyterian, Theonomist, Reconstructionist, Federal Visionist, Reformed Episcopalian, and now...drum roll...Pro-Tractarian all within one lifetime), Ray Sutton, both ever seeking a place at the bigger table, the lust for respectability rather than doctrinal fidelity.  Own it Riches.  Own it Sutton.  You're flip-floppers, especially you, Riches.  Dr. Rudolph's view of you, Riches? Dr. Herter's thoughts on you, Riches?  Dr. Fisher's thoughts on you Riches?  Dr. Guelzo's thoughts on you, Riches?  Doctored men with world class doctorates with dim views of you, your meager MDiv.  Or, Dr. Geoff Hubler's (D.Phil, Oxford) view on you, Riches?  Dr. Hubler has very, very dim views of you, Riches. Or, my Marine-view of you Riches? Weak men in pursuit of respectability and as a function of deep-seated inferiority complexes and lack of confidence in the Reformed faith.  You get no respect because you've dissipated your capital and you tossed the heritage.)  Although Treading Grain is "one" Calvinistic Anglican, it is probably too much to hope that the Muddling American Anglicans might recover their genuine roots, the English Reformers. Well, alas, at least there is one Reformed Anglican, a small and great comfort.  The "exile" is lonely.


5 Myths About Reformed Theology

Michael Horton has a nice article over at The Resurgence addressing common myths about Reformed theology. It was a nice summary of his book, For Calvinism, which I am just finishing and recommend wholeheartedly. The readers of this blog will know that I believe the truest and best expression of Anglicanism, which comes to us from our Reformers, is a Reformed Anglicanism.

Horton opens his article noting the irony that can attend Reformed theology.  He writes:

Calvinists can be pains in the neck. I should know—I’ve been one myself on occasion. Yet, it is a terrific irony that a theology that so exalts God and lays human beings low before his majesty and grace should be championed sometimes with a spirit that contradicts it.
He continues by laying out five common misperceptions about Reformed theology:

·         Reformed theology is arrogant and prideful.
·         Reformed theology makes us robots in God’s plan.
·         Reformed theology has no grace and love.
·         Reformed theology kills genuine, heart-felt piety.
·         Reformed theology kills community and mission.

Ouch.

So, how does Horton answer these critiques? Read the article. Or, better yet, buy the book.

Thursday, July 19, 2012

John Newton & "Amazing Grace"

Saturday, May 5, 2012

Anti-Arminians: Anglican Reformed Tradition from Charles II to George I

We refuse to pay this exorbitant price for the present.  However, it is from OUP, a world class press.  Undoubtedly, we may break down and purchase it.  We are not surprised by the thesis, in the least. Not one whit!  Rev. Augustus Montague Toplady is one Churchman, amongst others, in the Reformation, Calvinistic and Anglican stream of the holy, catholic and apostolic church.

http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Arminians-Tradition-Theological-Monographs-ebook/dp/B005COO1OA

Anti-Arminians : The Anglican Reformed Tradition from Charles II to George I (Oxford Theological Monographs) [Kindle Edition]

Stephen Hampton

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"Hampton writes with enviable clarity and precision. It is a study that anyone interested in the theological controversies of the late Stuart church will have to read." --Church History

Product Description

This book is a study of the Anglican Reformed tradition (often inaccurately described as Calvinist) after the Restoration. Hampton sets out to revise our picture of the theological world of the later Stuart period. Arguing that the importance of the Reformed theological tradition has frequently been underestimated, his study points to a network of conforming reformed theologians which included many of the most prominent churchmen of the age. Focussing particularly on what these
churchmen contributed in three hotly disputed areas of doctrine (justification, the Trinity and the divine attributes), he argues that the most significant debates in speculative theology after 1662 were the result of the Anglican Reformed resistance to the growing influence of continental Arminianism.

Hampton demonstrates the strength and flexibility of the Reformed response to the developing Arminian school, and shows that the Reformed tradition remained a viable theological option for Anglicans well into the eighteenth century. This study therefore provides a significant bridge linking the Reformed writes of the Elizabethan and early Stuart periods to the Reformed Evangelicals of the eighteenth century. It also shows that, throughout its formative period, Anglicanism was not a monolithic tradition, but rather a contested ground between the competing claims of those adhering to the Church of England's Reformed doctrinal heritage and the insights of those who, to varying degrees, were prepared to explore new theological avenues.



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  • File Size: 782 KB
  • Print Length: 302 pages
  • Page Numbers Source ISBN: 0199533369
  • Publisher: Oxford University Press (May 29, 2008)
  • Sold by: Amazon Digital Services
  • Language: English
  • ASIN: B005COO1OA
  • Text-to-Speech: Enabled
  • Lending: Enabled

Wednesday, April 11, 2012

Dr. R. Scott Clark: Transitioning to Reformation Churches

Clark, R. Scott. Recovering
the Reformed Confessions.
Phillipsburg, NJ:
Presbyterian and Reformed
Publishing, 2008.  Print.
May Dr. Clark's
tribe be extended.
Note that Together
for the Gospel, Gospel
Coalition and Ligonier
Ministries, Alliance of
Confessing Evangelicals,
Etc., do not feature
Dr. Clark.  Nuff said.
Dr. R. Scott Clark speaks of the transition by revivalist evangelicals to Confessionally Reformed Churches, an experience for the pilgrim as much for host church.  Dr. Clark, a Professor, Scholar, Thinker and Reformed Churchman, writes wisely and invitingly for those transitioning to "better pastures for the sheep."  The same observations may be made for those transitioning to Confessionally Lutheran and (few though they are) Confessionally Anglican Churches.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/pilgrims-and-their-hosts/?aref=SS

Pilgrims (and Their Hosts)


A wise traveler adapts to the customs and languages of the host country. When we lived abroad, people never asked us about our health. It is considered rude. The day we left England, however, we were peppered with questions by an American woman who was being polite. What was rude in England was polite in Dallas. Changing theological traditions is like traveling abroad. Upon arrival, the visitor is likely to find new language and culture, that is, a new theology, piety, and practice. This cross-cultural encounter creates opportunities and obligations for hosts and pilgrims alike.

There are about sixty-million evangelicals in North America. By contrast, the confessional Reformed communions number fewer than one million members. One effect of these disproportionate numbers is that the theology, piety, and practice of American evangelicals shape the expectations of many Christians. That ethos is the product of a series of religious revivals that began in the eighteenth century and continued through the nineteenth century. These two episodes were different in significant ways but they were similar in important ways too. They were both organized around various kinds of religious experience. They differed on how to arrive at that experience and even on what the experience means. Nevertheless, the common thread of religious experience, whether it be a sort of direct encounter with the risen Christ or a conversion experience at the anxious bench, ties them together. Since the early eighteenth century, all American evangelicals have been shaped by a desire to have an intense, personal religious experience.

By contrast, the theology, piety, and practice of confessional Reformed congregations has been shaped not so much by religious experience but rather by a certain kind of confession of faith, worship, and approach to the Christian life. These confessional churches believe strongly in Christ’s work in us, by His Spirit, through His gospel, but it all begins with what Christ did for sinners in history. For the revivalist traditions, the present work of the Spirit in us often displaces the objective work of Christ for us.

American Protestant denominations trace their roots to the Protestant Reformation, and many invoke memories of that heritage. Most of those denominations and churches, however, came to agree with the eighteenth- and nineteenth-century critics of Christianity and thus rejected the old Reformation tradition. Like the revivalists, they too turned to religious experience. They replaced the Jesus of history with the “Jesus of faith,” or the Jesus of personal experience.

There remain, however, churches that not only trace their roots to the Reformation but who also continue to believe the same faith confessed by Calvin and his successors. Those churches confess the same worship and the same approach to the Christian life that marked Calvin’s church. These Reformed churches have a vital theology, piety, and practice, but it is of a different sort than that shaped by American revivalism. It is more interested in nurture than in crisis. It is more interested in what the Reformed call the means of grace (Word, sacraments, prayer) than it is in the anxious bench or the sinner’s prayer.

Because many parts of the American revivalist traditions retained a memory of their Reformation roots, the confessional and revivalist wings of American Protestantism coexisted and cooperated temporarily. Eventually, however, the underlying tensions surfaced and the relationship failed. Now the confessional churches are isolated from both the old liberal mainline and the revivalist traditions.

Despite these shifts, pilgrims from the revivalist and mainline traditions often find their way into confessional Reformed churches. If you are one of those, I hope this map helps you understand a little better why your first time in a confessional Reformed congregation felt so strange: It was. You crossed a border, an international dateline, and did not know it. If you found yourself in an intentionally historic, confessional Reformed congregation, you may have even done a little time traveling to the seventeenth or even the sixteenth century. Be a wise traveler. Give yourself a moment to get oriented. Enjoy the destination.

Now, a word to those congregations (such as mine) who find themselves host to such pilgrims. Please remember that our new friends are probably disoriented. The language, customs, and food are strange to them. They bring with them expectations not shaped by the Reformation. Our emphasis upon the gospel, sacraments, and the visible church may strike them as overly formal. We have two choices. We can pretend that we really belong to their tradition or we can gently, gradually welcome them to ours. I recommend the latter. It may take time for Americans raised on religious fastfood to learn to enjoy a new diet, language, and culture. If we try to become what the pilgrim has left behind, what use are we to the pilgrim? (Matt. 5:13). Let us welcome our brothers and sisters with open arms, open Bibles, and warm smiles. As we do so we will be imitating our great-grand father John Calvin who both welcomed pilgrims and maintained a faithful witness to the Reformation faith.

Wednesday, February 22, 2012

1662 Book of Common Prayer: J.C. Ryle

Bishop John Charles Ryle, Liverpool, UK
(1816-1900)
I go on to say that Evangelical Religion does not undervalue the English Prayer-book. It is not true to say that we do. We honour that excellent book as a matchless form of public worship, and one most admirably adapted to the wants of human nature. We use it with pleasure in our public ministrations, and should grieve to see the day when its use is forbidden.

But we do not presume to say there can be no acceptable worship of God without the Prayer-book. It does not possess the same authority as the Bible. We steadily refuse to give to the Prayer-book the honour which is only due to the Holy Scriptures, or to regard it as forming, together with the Bible, the rule of faith for the Church of England. We deny that it contains one single truth of religion, besides, over and above what is contained in God’s Word. And we hold that to say the Bible and Prayer-book together are “the Church’s Creed,” is foolish and absurd.

Knots Untied, p. 14

Thirty-nine Articles: James Packer and Treading Grain

James I. Packer, D.Phil, Oxford
1926-present
Treading Grain offers the following post at:  http://treadinggrain.com/2012/j-i-packer-the-creeds-and-the-articles-together/

I am enjoying quite a bit the reading I’m doing as preparation for our spring/summer sermon series on the 39 Articles. Peter Moore dropped off his copy of +John Rodgers’ new book on the Articles. It’s next on my reading list having finished J.I. Packer’s nice little treatise: The Thirty-Nine Articles: Their Place and Use Today.

In his essay, Packer writes of the dual role the Creeds and Articles play in the development of a coherent, robust and authentic Anglicanism.

The Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds challenge every generation of the world church: do you still stand with us on the Trinity? on the Incarnation? on the second coming of our Lord, and the Christian hope? If not, why not? Are not our positions scriptural? Go to the Bible and see. And if you find they are, will you not labour to teach and stress and defend these things in your day, as we did in ours? And the Articles, supplementing the Creeds, ask each generation of Anglicans further questions. Do you stand where we stand with regard to the sufficiency and supremacy of Scripture? the gravity of sin? justification by faith alone in and through Christ alone? the nature of the sacraments as seals of the gospel promise, means of grace because they are means to faith? loyalty to the gospel in word and sacrament as the sole decisive mark of the church? the dangerous, anti-evangelical tendency of Roman doctrines and practices? If these things are not at the centre of your faith and testimony, why not? Test these contentions by Scripture: is it not the case that where we are positive, the Bible was positive before us? And if we were right then to treat these points as evangelical essentials, ought not you to be seeking ways and means of proclaiming and vindicating them now?

If there is any substance in what we have been saying, it is clear that we many not just casually cast off the Articles because they are old. Until they are decisively refuted from Scripture (which has not been done yet), we have no warrant for rejecting them, or for relaxing the requirement of clerical subscription.

Thirty-nine Articles by Bp. John Rodgers

http://www.tsm.edu/news_stories/bishop_john_rodgers_new_book_now_available

Bishop John Rodgers New Book Now Available!


Bp. John Rodgers is well known to Trinity as the Dean/President Emeritus, long time Professor of Systematic Theology, and encourager to all. Now, Bp. John is known for one more role – author! After many years of work, Bp. John has completed a comprehensive book on the 39 Articles. This book, ESSENTIAL TRUTHS FOR CHRISTIANS: A Commentary on the Anglican Thirty-Nine Articles and an Introduction to Systematic Theology, is now available.

Published by the Classical Anglican Press, Essential Truthscan be purchased from the Trinity Bookstore at 1-800-874-8754 or bookstore@tsm.edu. Cost is $24.95 paperback and or $49.95 hardcover.

With a focus on solid theological teaching, practical application, and spiritual formation, Essential Truths is written for clergy, for ministry students, and for lay leaders. Essential Truths shows how the Anglican Reformers "got it right" on the central matters of the Christian Faith, and that these teachings are both biblical and relevant for today. This book is designed as an easy-to-find reference on the Articles and as an introduction to the basic themes of systematic theology. The foreword is written by J. I. Packer.

Bp. Rodgers will be doing a book signing at Trinity on Wednesday, April 13, after chapel.

Friday, December 2, 2011

American Anglican Evangelicals?

Comments in blue below by DPV.

http://www.ecusa.anglican.org/109399_14327_ENG_HTM.htm

Evangelical

The evangelical movement in the Episcopal Church (DPV:  But evangelical and Episcopal, or Anglican, is redundant...hint, hint, the BCP is evangelical)  was influenced strongly (DPV:  Far over-stated and strongly overstated) by the Great Awakening in America during the mid-eighteenth century (DPV: Eegads, overstated). Episcopal evangelicals reflected American evangelicalism in many ways (DPV:  In fact, Lutherans and Anglicans were pretty resistant to enthusiasts), including a characteristic emphasis on personal religion and religious emotion (Huh?  Evangelicals were Prayer-book reading people)
, personal conversion, the authority of the Bible (DPV:  Like the BCP) as centered in the revelation of God in Christ (DPV: Sorta like the Creeds?) , the importance of justification by faith (DPV: Like Articles 9-11, sorta like the Reformation? ), the preaching of the Word and the study of the gospel (DPV: Like Article 6, sorta like the preaching commened by the first 6 centuries of Churchmen, e.g sorta like sola scriptura), the centrality of the cross (DPV:  Eegads, the Gospels?) for salvation (DPV:  Like the 39 Articles and BCP), the importance of the believer's direct relationship with God (DPV: Is there any other kind?), and a desire for pure and undefiled religion (DPV: And the BCP suggests otherwise?  What does the singing of the Psalms in the Anglican suggest? ) which included a strong aversion to worldliness and threats to public morals (DPV:  And what else might the 10 commandments suggest from Holy Communion in the 1789, 1892 or 1928 Prayer Books?). Episcopal evangelicals (DPV: An oxymoron) attended prayer meetings which included informal prayers (DPV: Horrors!  Holy moly!) and enthusiastic singing of hymns (DPV: Proof?  When have we--Anglicans--ever abandoned our beloved BCP?  Our beloved hymns?  Our heritage of honour, dignity, decorum or depth?  Stop!  This is rank revisionism). Evangelicals wrote many of the hymns (DPV:  Huh?  Evidence please?) that were used in the first years of the Episcopal Church. Evangelicals in the Episcopal Church used the Prayer Book and participated in the sacraments (??  DPV:  We need evidence here)  not emphasize the importance of sacramental form or the importance of apostolic succession (DPV: Quite overstated and simplified). They saw much value in the less liturgical (DPV: rank revisionism, Evangelical Anglicans were Prayer Book folks) style of other Protestant churches (DPV:  Hogwash. Anglicans never tossed their beloved BCP) and were impatient with canonical restrictions (DPV:  More overstatements, evangelicals loved their BCPs)  that prevented their participation in the services of other Protestant denominations (DPV: This deserves a howl) or the participation of other Protestant ministers in Episcopal services (DPV: Well, yes, admittedly, rightly, they saw "true churches" outside of Anglicanism, as Anglicanism historically saw, e.g. Confessional and Reformational Lutheran, Reformed and Presbyterian.) They were opposed to ritual excess (DPV:  Like Tractarians and other Ritualists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries), which they associated with the Roman Catholic Church (DPV: Puleeeze.  Get some sophistication here, please; some of us do read ya know?). Bishop Charles P. McIlvaine of Ohio challenged the theology of the Oxford Movement in his Oxford Divinity (1841) (DPV: That received very wide support in England that most Americans do not realize;  but don't tell the ACNA or AMiA about these insights from Bp. McIvaine), which identified Oxford divinity with the Roman Catholic Church and urged that both served to undermine the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith (DPV:  Yawn, puleeze.  Historic scholarship has identified Newman with Romanistic Trent.  Ahem.). The the Episcopal Church. Evangelicals have been at the center of the overseas missionary work of the Episcopal Church since the 1830s (DPV :  Evangelical and Anglican are not antonyms despite revisionist reviews). Noted evangelicals in the Episcopal Church included Bishops Richard Channing Moore and William Meade of Virginia; Philander Chase, Gregory T. Bedell, McIlvaine of Ohio (DPV: Supporters of the early REC although they later bagged Bp. Cummins, KY); Alexander Viets Griswold of the Eastern Diocese, who later served as Presiding Bishop; and Alonzo Potter of Pennsylvania. Other notable evangelicals were Elizabeth Channing Moore, and the Rev. William H. Wilmer, who served as president of William and Mary College (DPV: An Evangelical at William and Mary College?  That's news.)  ; and Francis Scott Key, author of "The Star-Spangled Banner." (DPV:  Key, an Evangelical?) Evangelical principles guided the founding of the Virginia Theological Seminary in Alexandria, Virginia, by Meade, Wilmer, and others; and the founding by Chase of Kenyon College and Gambier Theological Seminary (later Bexley Hall) in Ohio. (DPV:  Regrettably, VTS was 4-point Calvinist in 1819, a substantive step-down from classical Dortrechtian Calvinism of 1618-1619, unlike the Elizabethan Bishops who were 5-pointers until the disastrous Arminian Laud, but...this much...FAR, FAR BETTER THAN ANYTHING ON OFFER WITH TEC OR CofE in our times...these modern loons wouldn't know a TULIP if it hit them on the head.  We continue to live in the Anglican exile.  How long, O LORD, must we endure the revisionists and self-serving revisionists?)

Tuesday, November 22, 2011

REC? Church Soc? Calvinistic Anglicans? USA?

D. Philip Veitch (reformationtoday@yahoo.com)
CC:  reformationtoday@yahoo.com; protestantallianceofconfessingevangelicals@yahoogroups.com; aocanglican@yahoogroups.com; director@churchsociety.org; englishchurchman@aol.com; aguelzo@gettysburg.edu; dpmprompt@aol.com; cranmer1959@gmail.com
<><> <><> <><> <><> <><>
Subj:   RES/REC/Church Soc
Gillis: 

As an historian, I appreciate your historical effort vis a vis the Church Society. But REC? Am an 87' grad of RES with an 81' degree from WTS and additional grad credits in classics (languages) and Roman theology (Villanova). Very leary of anything connected to the current REC leadership...across the top. Why not AOC?
Thanks, but massive trust issues with the REC. In fact, the current Bishops are a great and weighty argument against episcopacy and in favour of Presbyterianism. Leo the Capitulator? Ray the accomodator of APA? Dan, permitting Marian invocations? Roy in Houston?
An old Calvinist with an old BCP, but in exile. Re: REC big time Caveat Emptor.
Regards,
Don

Sunday, November 20, 2011

UK Theolgian Dr. Turnbull Says God Still Has Plan for CofE

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=15207

UK Seminary Theologian Says God still has a Plan for CofE despite Theological Liberalism, Cultural Obstacles

An Interview with the Rev. Dr. Richard Turnbull principal (president) and Dean of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
November 16, 2011

He was the youngest at 44 in 2005 to lead a prominent British theological institution. Now at 51, the Rev. Dr. Richard Turnbull who holds a First Class honors degree in theology and a doctorate in Church History from Durham University has weathered the early storms that go with a new principal (president) and Dean of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford. He is naturally proud that his institution is a recognized college of the University of Oxford although his institution came under close scrutiny a few years ago. In fact Richard comments that the University has been strongly supportive of Wycliffe, its role within the University and its scholarly contribution to the Faculty of Theology. As principal, Turnbull gives leadership to the college as well as teaching and representing the college externally. He teaches courses on Anglicanism, Anglican and Evangelical Identity and the Reformation. He is currently undertaking research projects in Evangelical spirituality and the future of Evangelicalism.

He is the author of Anglican and Evangelical? and Shaftesbury, the great reformer - a great biography of Wilberforce's effective successor who served in Parliament for 60 years. Books on the history of the Evangelical Revival and Evangelical Spirituality will be published in 2012.He was a member of the committee that drafted the document A Covenant for the Church of England. Richard has also served on the Archbishops' Council and chaired review committees for the Church of England.

He was in Philadelphia recently lecturing at the John Jay Institute, an Anglican-based Fellows Program for post-graduate persons aspiring to public office in society and the church.

VOL met with Dr. Turnbull at the Bala Cynwyd based organization and sat down to talk with him about the state of the Church of England, women bishops, as well as theological education in the UK and if the Church of England will be a viable institution 25 years from now.

VOL: What is the state of your theological college and theological education in general in England?

TURNBULL: We have about 100 students. We are among the largest theological colleges in England. About two-thirds are training for the Anglican ministry, another quarter studying apologetics and the rest are doing post-graduate work. Candidates for ministry are evangelicals going into the ministry and they are coming from mainly conservative churches.

While the overall numbers for ordination are down slightly, a fair number are in their 20s which says to me that God still has a plan for England and the Church of England.

Another college like us is Oak Hill in London, though we would probably have a wider range of students. Ridley ,Trinity, Bristol, St John's Nottingham, Durham are much less conservative (some would use the description liberal evangelical - meaning less clarity on the doctrine of scripture and the substitutionary atonement), though all these have some good people. Ripon College Cuddesdon and Westcott House, Cambridge, Queens, Birmingham are more liberal and not evangelical. The Anglo-Catholic colleges are small and very weak. St. Stephens House has less than 20 and The College of the Resurrection Mirfield, is also very liberal and struggling.

ANGLO-CATHOLICISM

VOL: Does Anglo-Catholicism have a future in the Church of England?

TURNBULL: Anglo Catholicism is in long term serious decline in the Church of England. Anglo-Catholics are more conservative in some areas and more liberal in other areas. So for example, most Anglo-Catholics would affirm the same principles of revelation as evangelicals but on issues such as homosexuality there would be much divided opinion in the Catholic constituency.Affirming Catholicism is liberal in theology and doctrine. A majority, are catholic minded Anglicans but there is a great deal of antipathy between Anglo Catholics and Affirming Catholics. Dr. Rowan Williams is an Affirming Catholic, but to be honest he is also a thoughtful and engaging scholar. We at Wycliffe try to co-operate with the Anglo-Catholic constituency as much as possible but friends in the US need to understand that whilst evangelicals in the Church of England are relatively strong, the Catholic constituency is really very weak, with few ordinands.

VOL: What are some of the pressures you face?

TURNBULL: There are lots of pressures on seminaries particularly those that are clear cut in their theology with intrusion from secular authorities. I was advised that I could not hire a Christian as my personal executive assistant. I was told that anybody could type or answer the phone. I thanked the advisors and refused to accept their authority in this matter. I utterly and totally repudiate the notion that you have to accept pressure from the state and pressure from the church over teaching good old fashioned evangelical doctrine. I want to teach people to love Jesus and proclaim the message of the cross and resist the pressure to conform. Jesus was not a conformist.

I am committed to teaching traditional doctrine of the OT & NT and history with lots of training for the practical (pastoral) ministry. A lot of institutions have titles for their professors that do not reflect either sound doctrine or pastoral concerns, a lot of approaches have to do with self esteem and self realization. I don't understand what all that navel gazing has to do with one's ability and need to teach the historic faith. Of course, that is not to say we do not need character formation, that is essential, but it is a matter of being clearly focused on the essentials.

ROWAN WILLIAMS

VOL: It has been widely reported that Dr. Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury is going to resign though Lambeth Palace has said nothing either way. What is your take?

TURNBULL: I am not sure about the veracity that he will resign. The idea that Rowan Williams will return to an academic post at some point is not news. All that is at some point in the future. To my knowledge there has been no decision. He may do that and that would not be a surprise. Speculation about his successor is wide of the mark. Most candidates are 2-3 years older than Rowan therefore unlikely to succeed him including John Sentamu Archbishop of York and Richard Charters Bishop of London.

VOL: In your opinion does the former Bishop of Rochester, Dr. Michael Nazir Ali have a chance?

TURNBULL: It would be great if Michael could succeed Rowan. He is very controversial in the minds of some. In point of view of orthodox biblical faith Anglicans would find no better representative than Nazir Ali. He has the confidence of the Global South but within the UK he is probably not a realistic prospect. I should add that Michael serves as a senior fellow at Wycliffe Hall and brings great insights into our teaching.

WOMEN BISHOPS

VOL: Are women bishops inevitable in the Church of England? Can the momentum really be stopped?

TURNBULL: The issue of women bishops is causing much anxiety in the evangelical community in England and although there are various views the majority of evangelicals believe that there should be some legally provided protection for those who, in conscience, find the appointment of women bishops not to be in accordance with the scriptures. What is happening is that all 44 dioceses are voting individually on proposed legislation and it looks likely that it will be passed in most dioceses. In fact we now know that all but two dioceses have passed the legislation but around 12 dioceses also passed resolutions seeking more formal protection for those who have reservations.

VOL: What happens next?

TURNBULL: It will then come back to Synod in July 2012 where it will require two-thirds majority of bishops, clergy and laity voting separately. The vote will be close in the House of Laity, maybe then the archbishop will seek a compromise to offer protection in order to ensure its passage. You need 33% to block it, but they will wobble when they see the other houses go for it. There is a real prospect, but no certainty, that the Measure will in fact fail to gain the necessary votes in the House of Laity.

For the remaining Anglo-Catholics in the Church of England it is a real disaster and will lead to more defections to Rome after the vote.

VOL: What will be the impact on Evangelicals?

TURNBULL: The problem for the evangelical wing is that we are not that keen on bishops anyway and will carry on doing our own thing.

The Church of England will have women bishops and some of the existing bench of bishops can't wait to be the first to make such an appointment. That will create problems if women are appointed for the sake of it and for those parishes and clergy who cannot in conscience accept it. My genuine hope is that there will be some legally provided provision to enable both sides of the debate to coexist.

VOL: Will church attendance suddenly rocket if there are Women Bishops?

TURNBULL: None whatsoever. Most people are not interested and they do very little evangelism in the name of Jesus and it is therefore a distraction from the real mission of the church.

HOMOSEXUALS AND THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND

VOL: Where is the "gay" agenda going in the Church of England?

TURNBULL: It is only a matter of time before we have an attempted effort to appoint a bishop who is a practicing homosexual. Regrettably some people are already campaigning on the issue and can't wait till the opportunity arises. The problem for most orthodox Christian believers is that such an appointment would be contrary to Scripture.

VOL: Would that split the Church of England?

TURNBULL: It's very complicated in England because local churches have significant independence from their bishop and can safely ignore the bishop so there will not be a clean linear split. That explains why there won't be a split.

VOL: What is the difference between a TEC bishops' authority versus a CofE bishops' authority?

TURNBULL: It is amazing to us that TEC bishops have that power and authority and can determine the employment and future of a local priest. In England a bishop does not necessarily have that same authority at all.

VOL: In TEC a bishop has rights of visitation to a parish and has significant control over the priest and acts really as a key central ecclesiastical authority. A priest is obliged to receive a bishop once every three years.

TURNBULL: The history of the Church of England is that authority is diffused and dispersed and bishops have no power to impose their will on local churches. The local church is not ecclesiastically required to invite a bishop to his/her parish. All financial assessments are voluntary and could/should be drastically reduced. A bishop does not have the power to visit at will or to fire a priest without a disciplinary process, for example involving adultery.

VOL: There are some very real fundamental differences then?

TURNBULL: Yes. The situation in England is different from that in TEC and it is possible for parishes to exist within the Church of England without the same degree of oppression and most evangelicals have no intention of leaving the Church of England - mainly because the foundation documents are clearly Protestant and Reformed. In England most evangelical priests have a low opinion of the theology of bishops and also most of the occupants on the current bench in the House of Lords.

The Lords Spiritual as they are called number 26 in the House of Lords, and they love it for the preferment it offers and they enjoy the status it gives them and they can lead prayers. I welcome the Christian voice in the public square. However, they are rarely united and most wouldn't know how to lead anyone to Christ.

VOL: Former Archbishop George Carey and former Rochester Bishop Dr. Michael Nazir Ali have been quite vocal on the Culture Wars. What is your take on this?

TURNBULL: I admire and welcome both men's contribution to the debate on the clash of culture and the challenge to Christianity that comes from culture. Christianity has always been counter cultural not just submerged underneath the culture, especially in terms of secularization and Islam.

Both men have been very brave speaking out about most things. It is seen as very politically incorrect in the UK to do so. It is very brave of Nazir Ali. He is powerfully speaking up about the challenge of Islam because he has direct experience as well as being the [former] Bishop or Rochester. He was not listened to but he represents a strong standard of English public opinion. Both Christianity and Islam are missionary faiths and it is not surprising there are clashes of culture. We should not be afraid of Christianity being a missionary faith.

THE FUTURE OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND

VOL: What do you see as the future of the Church of England?

TURNBULL: The Church of England will be smaller in 10-15 years and my hope is it will be slimmer and fitter. It suffers from an enormous bureaucracy and a financial system that looks like a command economy and that needs to change. I hope we reduce the number of dioceses and reduce bureaucracy and appoint bishops, that is leaders who are spiritual, evangelical and church planters rather than estate agents and managers.

VOL: Should the CofE be disestablished?

TURNBULL: On balance to go down that road of disestablishment would be a distraction from evangelism and mission and church planting. The CofE is not a state church, it is the church in Europe that is least connected to the state and it is a common misunderstanding that the state controls the church or funds the church. It does neither. The establishment can give enormous opportunity for witness and evangelism. My responsibility is to train clergy so that they can make effective use of those opportunities to proclaim Jesus.

VOL: With the growing liberalization and feminization of the Church of England can you easily place graduates?

TURNBULL: Generally that is not a problem. There are occasional issues of mismatch of graduates from evangelical colleges but mostly graduates can find jobs and it is the best interest of the Church of England that they do so.

VOL: How important is C. S. Lewis to the British public?

TURNBULL: He is only a big name in regard his being the author of children's books. Some people would recognize the Christian analogy that is drawn from those books. Very few know him as a Christian apologist. I think he is better known as a Christian apologist in the US

CULTURE WARS

VOL: There have been several reported instances in the British press of English Christians losing their jobs and facing legal action for praying with people, wearing Christian symbols, B& B owners being fined for not allowing homosexual couples to stay in their place and generally standing up for their Christian convictions.

TURNBULL: The use of legal action against Christians has caused enormous anxiety and we have even had situation of people losing their jobs for having a Christian symbol in their vehicle while working for a city council. Legal action on behalf of Christians oppressed in this way has generally failed, which frankly, is quite depressing. I see no end in sight, but there could be a backlash if this continues.

EVANGELISM AND CHURCH PLANTING IN THE UK

VOL: How is evangelism and church planting doing in England?

TURNBULL: England is spiritually desperate and more in need of the message of the gospel than ever before. This is the land of Wesley and Whitfield and we need people raised up with a passionate love of Christ to proclaim his life changing message. God has acted before in England I believe he will do so again. We need to plant churches, declare it in our teaching and allow God to act.

England has a great missionary heritage and is now in need of missionaries returning to England with that same gospel we once took elsewhere, so I welcome all of those who come from the Global South because they have the spiritual experience, suffering and persecution and the clarity of biblical teaching which England so desperately needs.

VOL: The Occupy Wall Street movement has come to England and St. Paul's Cathedral became the focus of their protest resulting in three resignations including the Dean. It has also put the Bishop of London Richard Charters in a very awkward position. If you side with the protestors who believe the moneyed few control the assets of England then the cathedral suffers from lost income (about $23,000) a day. If you side with the cathedral who look like the money changers in the Temple you might incur the wrath of Jesus or at the very least the protestors if you call the Police in to take them away. What is your take?

TURNBULL: I do have sympathy, great sympathy, with St Paul's Cathedral who found themselves in an impossible position. I very much regret the Dean's resignation. The truth is that once the police were sent away and the protesters welcomed, any decision made by the Cathedral authorities was likely to be problematic. I personally do not have much sympathy with the protesters and the church has been made to look foolish. Most of the protesters are 'fair weather' agitators; they put up their (rather expensive) tents and go to sleep in their comfortable suburban homes at night.

Actually we do not wish to adopt the views of the protest groups, I do not think they represent any significant opinion in the UK they are a rather motley collection of Marxists and anarchists. We need the banks, we need wealth creators we need innovation. However, I also believe that it is a legitimate Christian concern to raise questions about the level and structure of remuneration in the banking industry, but the questions need to be asked in context and not linked to some bizarre protest. Equally I would say that the Cathedral is right not to pursue legal action to evict if possible. We should not use unnecessary legal means or force that is not a great witness. My point also though is we should also not 'baptize' protest movements as representing the views of Christ. God created man to work, to create wealth and we should encourage that, as well as asking appropriate questions about philanthropy, boundaries, distribution etc - but you cannot properly discuss the latter without the former.

VOL: I understand there might be a silver lining with an orthodox bishop called to take over the helm of the cathedral. Can you elaborate on that?

TURNBULL: English Cathedrals are another idiosyncrasy. They are independent of Bishops (again, rather vigorously so in some respects) and the Bishop cannot control the cathedral. The senior cleric is the Dean, appointed in consultation with the Bishop, but no exclusively so. Occasionally a Bishop may move to be a Dean, but it is not usual, slightly more often, a Dean moves to become a Bishop. To be Dean of St Paul's is an important and highly responsible job, I pray the right person is appointed.

VOL: Thank you Dr. Turnbull.

END