http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=15207
UK Seminary Theologian Says God still has a Plan for CofE despite Theological Liberalism, Cultural Obstacles
An Interview with the Rev. Dr. Richard Turnbull principal (president) and Dean of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford
By David W. Virtuewww.virtueonline.org
November 16, 2011
He was the youngest at 44 in 2005 to lead a prominent British theological institution. Now at 51, the Rev. Dr. Richard Turnbull who holds a First Class honors degree in theology and a doctorate in Church History from Durham University has weathered the early storms that go with a new principal (president) and Dean of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford. He is naturally proud that his institution is a recognized college of the University of Oxford although his institution came under close scrutiny a few years ago. In fact Richard comments that the University has been strongly supportive of Wycliffe, its role within the University and its scholarly contribution to the Faculty of Theology. As principal, Turnbull gives leadership to the college as well as teaching and representing the college externally. He teaches courses on Anglicanism, Anglican and Evangelical Identity and the Reformation. He is currently undertaking research projects in Evangelical spirituality and the future of Evangelicalism.
He is the author of Anglican and Evangelical? and Shaftesbury, the great reformer - a great biography of Wilberforce's effective successor who served in Parliament for 60 years. Books on the history of the Evangelical Revival and Evangelical Spirituality will be published in 2012.He was a member of the committee that drafted the document A Covenant for the Church of England. Richard has also served on the Archbishops' Council and chaired review committees for the Church of England.
He was in Philadelphia recently lecturing at the John Jay Institute, an Anglican-based Fellows Program for post-graduate persons aspiring to public office in society and the church.
VOL met with Dr. Turnbull at the Bala Cynwyd based organization and sat down to talk with him about the state of the Church of England, women bishops, as well as theological education in the UK and if the Church of England will be a viable institution 25 years from now.
VOL: What is the state of your theological college and theological education in general in England?
TURNBULL: We have about 100 students. We are among the largest theological colleges in England. About two-thirds are training for the Anglican ministry, another quarter studying apologetics and the rest are doing post-graduate work. Candidates for ministry are evangelicals going into the ministry and they are coming from mainly conservative churches.
While the overall numbers for ordination are down slightly, a fair number are in their 20s which says to me that God still has a plan for England and the Church of England.
Another college like us is Oak Hill in London, though we would probably have a wider range of students. Ridley ,Trinity, Bristol, St John's Nottingham, Durham are much less conservative (some would use the description liberal evangelical - meaning less clarity on the doctrine of scripture and the substitutionary atonement), though all these have some good people. Ripon College Cuddesdon and Westcott House, Cambridge, Queens, Birmingham are more liberal and not evangelical. The Anglo-Catholic colleges are small and very weak. St. Stephens House has less than 20 and The College of the Resurrection Mirfield, is also very liberal and struggling.
ANGLO-CATHOLICISM
VOL: Does Anglo-Catholicism have a future in the Church of England?
TURNBULL: Anglo Catholicism is in long term serious decline in the Church of England. Anglo-Catholics are more conservative in some areas and more liberal in other areas. So for example, most Anglo-Catholics would affirm the same principles of revelation as evangelicals but on issues such as homosexuality there would be much divided opinion in the Catholic constituency.Affirming Catholicism is liberal in theology and doctrine. A majority, are catholic minded Anglicans but there is a great deal of antipathy between Anglo Catholics and Affirming Catholics. Dr. Rowan Williams is an Affirming Catholic, but to be honest he is also a thoughtful and engaging scholar. We at Wycliffe try to co-operate with the Anglo-Catholic constituency as much as possible but friends in the US need to understand that whilst evangelicals in the Church of England are relatively strong, the Catholic constituency is really very weak, with few ordinands.
VOL: What are some of the pressures you face?
TURNBULL: There are lots of pressures on seminaries particularly those that are clear cut in their theology with intrusion from secular authorities. I was advised that I could not hire a Christian as my personal executive assistant. I was told that anybody could type or answer the phone. I thanked the advisors and refused to accept their authority in this matter. I utterly and totally repudiate the notion that you have to accept pressure from the state and pressure from the church over teaching good old fashioned evangelical doctrine. I want to teach people to love Jesus and proclaim the message of the cross and resist the pressure to conform. Jesus was not a conformist.
I am committed to teaching traditional doctrine of the OT & NT and history with lots of training for the practical (pastoral) ministry. A lot of institutions have titles for their professors that do not reflect either sound doctrine or pastoral concerns, a lot of approaches have to do with self esteem and self realization. I don't understand what all that navel gazing has to do with one's ability and need to teach the historic faith. Of course, that is not to say we do not need character formation, that is essential, but it is a matter of being clearly focused on the essentials.
ROWAN WILLIAMS
VOL: It has been widely reported that Dr. Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury is going to resign though Lambeth Palace has said nothing either way. What is your take?
TURNBULL: I am not sure about the veracity that he will resign. The idea that Rowan Williams will return to an academic post at some point is not news. All that is at some point in the future. To my knowledge there has been no decision. He may do that and that would not be a surprise. Speculation about his successor is wide of the mark. Most candidates are 2-3 years older than Rowan therefore unlikely to succeed him including John Sentamu Archbishop of York and Richard Charters Bishop of London.
VOL: In your opinion does the former Bishop of Rochester, Dr. Michael Nazir Ali have a chance?
TURNBULL: It would be great if Michael could succeed Rowan. He is very controversial in the minds of some. In point of view of orthodox biblical faith Anglicans would find no better representative than Nazir Ali. He has the confidence of the Global South but within the UK he is probably not a realistic prospect. I should add that Michael serves as a senior fellow at Wycliffe Hall and brings great insights into our teaching.
WOMEN BISHOPS
VOL: Are women bishops inevitable in the Church of England? Can the momentum really be stopped?
TURNBULL: The issue of women bishops is causing much anxiety in the evangelical community in England and although there are various views the majority of evangelicals believe that there should be some legally provided protection for those who, in conscience, find the appointment of women bishops not to be in accordance with the scriptures. What is happening is that all 44 dioceses are voting individually on proposed legislation and it looks likely that it will be passed in most dioceses. In fact we now know that all but two dioceses have passed the legislation but around 12 dioceses also passed resolutions seeking more formal protection for those who have reservations.
VOL: What happens next?
TURNBULL: It will then come back to Synod in July 2012 where it will require two-thirds majority of bishops, clergy and laity voting separately. The vote will be close in the House of Laity, maybe then the archbishop will seek a compromise to offer protection in order to ensure its passage. You need 33% to block it, but they will wobble when they see the other houses go for it. There is a real prospect, but no certainty, that the Measure will in fact fail to gain the necessary votes in the House of Laity.
For the remaining Anglo-Catholics in the Church of England it is a real disaster and will lead to more defections to Rome after the vote.
VOL: What will be the impact on Evangelicals?
TURNBULL: The problem for the evangelical wing is that we are not that keen on bishops anyway and will carry on doing our own thing.
The Church of England will have women bishops and some of the existing bench of bishops can't wait to be the first to make such an appointment. That will create problems if women are appointed for the sake of it and for those parishes and clergy who cannot in conscience accept it. My genuine hope is that there will be some legally provided provision to enable both sides of the debate to coexist.
VOL: Will church attendance suddenly rocket if there are Women Bishops?
TURNBULL: None whatsoever. Most people are not interested and they do very little evangelism in the name of Jesus and it is therefore a distraction from the real mission of the church.
HOMOSEXUALS AND THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND
VOL: Where is the "gay" agenda going in the Church of England?
TURNBULL: It is only a matter of time before we have an attempted effort to appoint a bishop who is a practicing homosexual. Regrettably some people are already campaigning on the issue and can't wait till the opportunity arises. The problem for most orthodox Christian believers is that such an appointment would be contrary to Scripture.
VOL: Would that split the Church of England?
TURNBULL: It's very complicated in England because local churches have significant independence from their bishop and can safely ignore the bishop so there will not be a clean linear split. That explains why there won't be a split.
VOL: What is the difference between a TEC bishops' authority versus a CofE bishops' authority?
TURNBULL: It is amazing to us that TEC bishops have that power and authority and can determine the employment and future of a local priest. In England a bishop does not necessarily have that same authority at all.
VOL: In TEC a bishop has rights of visitation to a parish and has significant control over the priest and acts really as a key central ecclesiastical authority. A priest is obliged to receive a bishop once every three years.
TURNBULL: The history of the Church of England is that authority is diffused and dispersed and bishops have no power to impose their will on local churches. The local church is not ecclesiastically required to invite a bishop to his/her parish. All financial assessments are voluntary and could/should be drastically reduced. A bishop does not have the power to visit at will or to fire a priest without a disciplinary process, for example involving adultery.
VOL: There are some very real fundamental differences then?
TURNBULL: Yes. The situation in England is different from that in TEC and it is possible for parishes to exist within the Church of England without the same degree of oppression and most evangelicals have no intention of leaving the Church of England - mainly because the foundation documents are clearly Protestant and Reformed. In England most evangelical priests have a low opinion of the theology of bishops and also most of the occupants on the current bench in the House of Lords.
The Lords Spiritual as they are called number 26 in the House of Lords, and they love it for the preferment it offers and they enjoy the status it gives them and they can lead prayers. I welcome the Christian voice in the public square. However, they are rarely united and most wouldn't know how to lead anyone to Christ.
VOL: Former Archbishop George Carey and former Rochester Bishop Dr. Michael Nazir Ali have been quite vocal on the Culture Wars. What is your take on this?
TURNBULL: I admire and welcome both men's contribution to the debate on the clash of culture and the challenge to Christianity that comes from culture. Christianity has always been counter cultural not just submerged underneath the culture, especially in terms of secularization and Islam.
Both men have been very brave speaking out about most things. It is seen as very politically incorrect in the UK to do so. It is very brave of Nazir Ali. He is powerfully speaking up about the challenge of Islam because he has direct experience as well as being the [former] Bishop or Rochester. He was not listened to but he represents a strong standard of English public opinion. Both Christianity and Islam are missionary faiths and it is not surprising there are clashes of culture. We should not be afraid of Christianity being a missionary faith.
THE FUTURE OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND
VOL: What do you see as the future of the Church of England?
TURNBULL: The Church of England will be smaller in 10-15 years and my hope is it will be slimmer and fitter. It suffers from an enormous bureaucracy and a financial system that looks like a command economy and that needs to change. I hope we reduce the number of dioceses and reduce bureaucracy and appoint bishops, that is leaders who are spiritual, evangelical and church planters rather than estate agents and managers.
VOL: Should the CofE be disestablished?
TURNBULL: On balance to go down that road of disestablishment would be a distraction from evangelism and mission and church planting. The CofE is not a state church, it is the church in Europe that is least connected to the state and it is a common misunderstanding that the state controls the church or funds the church. It does neither. The establishment can give enormous opportunity for witness and evangelism. My responsibility is to train clergy so that they can make effective use of those opportunities to proclaim Jesus.
VOL: With the growing liberalization and feminization of the Church of England can you easily place graduates?
TURNBULL: Generally that is not a problem. There are occasional issues of mismatch of graduates from evangelical colleges but mostly graduates can find jobs and it is the best interest of the Church of England that they do so.
VOL: How important is C. S. Lewis to the British public?
TURNBULL: He is only a big name in regard his being the author of children's books. Some people would recognize the Christian analogy that is drawn from those books. Very few know him as a Christian apologist. I think he is better known as a Christian apologist in the US
CULTURE WARS
VOL: There have been several reported instances in the British press of English Christians losing their jobs and facing legal action for praying with people, wearing Christian symbols, B& B owners being fined for not allowing homosexual couples to stay in their place and generally standing up for their Christian convictions.
TURNBULL: The use of legal action against Christians has caused enormous anxiety and we have even had situation of people losing their jobs for having a Christian symbol in their vehicle while working for a city council. Legal action on behalf of Christians oppressed in this way has generally failed, which frankly, is quite depressing. I see no end in sight, but there could be a backlash if this continues.
EVANGELISM AND CHURCH PLANTING IN THE UK
VOL: How is evangelism and church planting doing in England?
TURNBULL: England is spiritually desperate and more in need of the message of the gospel than ever before. This is the land of Wesley and Whitfield and we need people raised up with a passionate love of Christ to proclaim his life changing message. God has acted before in England I believe he will do so again. We need to plant churches, declare it in our teaching and allow God to act.
England has a great missionary heritage and is now in need of missionaries returning to England with that same gospel we once took elsewhere, so I welcome all of those who come from the Global South because they have the spiritual experience, suffering and persecution and the clarity of biblical teaching which England so desperately needs.
VOL: The Occupy Wall Street movement has come to England and St. Paul's Cathedral became the focus of their protest resulting in three resignations including the Dean. It has also put the Bishop of London Richard Charters in a very awkward position. If you side with the protestors who believe the moneyed few control the assets of England then the cathedral suffers from lost income (about $23,000) a day. If you side with the cathedral who look like the money changers in the Temple you might incur the wrath of Jesus or at the very least the protestors if you call the Police in to take them away. What is your take?
TURNBULL: I do have sympathy, great sympathy, with St Paul's Cathedral who found themselves in an impossible position. I very much regret the Dean's resignation. The truth is that once the police were sent away and the protesters welcomed, any decision made by the Cathedral authorities was likely to be problematic. I personally do not have much sympathy with the protesters and the church has been made to look foolish. Most of the protesters are 'fair weather' agitators; they put up their (rather expensive) tents and go to sleep in their comfortable suburban homes at night.
Actually we do not wish to adopt the views of the protest groups, I do not think they represent any significant opinion in the UK they are a rather motley collection of Marxists and anarchists. We need the banks, we need wealth creators we need innovation. However, I also believe that it is a legitimate Christian concern to raise questions about the level and structure of remuneration in the banking industry, but the questions need to be asked in context and not linked to some bizarre protest. Equally I would say that the Cathedral is right not to pursue legal action to evict if possible. We should not use unnecessary legal means or force that is not a great witness. My point also though is we should also not 'baptize' protest movements as representing the views of Christ. God created man to work, to create wealth and we should encourage that, as well as asking appropriate questions about philanthropy, boundaries, distribution etc - but you cannot properly discuss the latter without the former.
VOL: I understand there might be a silver lining with an orthodox bishop called to take over the helm of the cathedral. Can you elaborate on that?
TURNBULL: English Cathedrals are another idiosyncrasy. They are independent of Bishops (again, rather vigorously so in some respects) and the Bishop cannot control the cathedral. The senior cleric is the Dean, appointed in consultation with the Bishop, but no exclusively so. Occasionally a Bishop may move to be a Dean, but it is not usual, slightly more often, a Dean moves to become a Bishop. To be Dean of St Paul's is an important and highly responsible job, I pray the right person is appointed.
VOL: Thank you Dr. Turnbull.
END
UK Seminary Theologian Says God still has a Plan for CofE despite Theological Liberalism, Cultural Obstacles
An Interview with the Rev. Dr. Richard Turnbull principal (president) and Dean of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford
By David W. Virtuewww.virtueonline.org
November 16, 2011
He was the youngest at 44 in 2005 to lead a prominent British theological institution. Now at 51, the Rev. Dr. Richard Turnbull who holds a First Class honors degree in theology and a doctorate in Church History from Durham University has weathered the early storms that go with a new principal (president) and Dean of Wycliffe Hall, Oxford. He is naturally proud that his institution is a recognized college of the University of Oxford although his institution came under close scrutiny a few years ago. In fact Richard comments that the University has been strongly supportive of Wycliffe, its role within the University and its scholarly contribution to the Faculty of Theology. As principal, Turnbull gives leadership to the college as well as teaching and representing the college externally. He teaches courses on Anglicanism, Anglican and Evangelical Identity and the Reformation. He is currently undertaking research projects in Evangelical spirituality and the future of Evangelicalism. He is the author of Anglican and Evangelical? and Shaftesbury, the great reformer - a great biography of Wilberforce's effective successor who served in Parliament for 60 years. Books on the history of the Evangelical Revival and Evangelical Spirituality will be published in 2012.He was a member of the committee that drafted the document A Covenant for the Church of England. Richard has also served on the Archbishops' Council and chaired review committees for the Church of England.
He was in Philadelphia recently lecturing at the John Jay Institute, an Anglican-based Fellows Program for post-graduate persons aspiring to public office in society and the church.
VOL met with Dr. Turnbull at the Bala Cynwyd based organization and sat down to talk with him about the state of the Church of England, women bishops, as well as theological education in the UK and if the Church of England will be a viable institution 25 years from now.
VOL: What is the state of your theological college and theological education in general in England?
TURNBULL: We have about 100 students. We are among the largest theological colleges in England. About two-thirds are training for the Anglican ministry, another quarter studying apologetics and the rest are doing post-graduate work. Candidates for ministry are evangelicals going into the ministry and they are coming from mainly conservative churches.
While the overall numbers for ordination are down slightly, a fair number are in their 20s which says to me that God still has a plan for England and the Church of England.
Another college like us is Oak Hill in London, though we would probably have a wider range of students. Ridley ,Trinity, Bristol, St John's Nottingham, Durham are much less conservative (some would use the description liberal evangelical - meaning less clarity on the doctrine of scripture and the substitutionary atonement), though all these have some good people. Ripon College Cuddesdon and Westcott House, Cambridge, Queens, Birmingham are more liberal and not evangelical. The Anglo-Catholic colleges are small and very weak. St. Stephens House has less than 20 and The College of the Resurrection Mirfield, is also very liberal and struggling.
ANGLO-CATHOLICISM
VOL: Does Anglo-Catholicism have a future in the Church of England?
TURNBULL: Anglo Catholicism is in long term serious decline in the Church of England. Anglo-Catholics are more conservative in some areas and more liberal in other areas. So for example, most Anglo-Catholics would affirm the same principles of revelation as evangelicals but on issues such as homosexuality there would be much divided opinion in the Catholic constituency.Affirming Catholicism is liberal in theology and doctrine. A majority, are catholic minded Anglicans but there is a great deal of antipathy between Anglo Catholics and Affirming Catholics. Dr. Rowan Williams is an Affirming Catholic, but to be honest he is also a thoughtful and engaging scholar. We at Wycliffe try to co-operate with the Anglo-Catholic constituency as much as possible but friends in the US need to understand that whilst evangelicals in the Church of England are relatively strong, the Catholic constituency is really very weak, with few ordinands.
VOL: What are some of the pressures you face?
TURNBULL: There are lots of pressures on seminaries particularly those that are clear cut in their theology with intrusion from secular authorities. I was advised that I could not hire a Christian as my personal executive assistant. I was told that anybody could type or answer the phone. I thanked the advisors and refused to accept their authority in this matter. I utterly and totally repudiate the notion that you have to accept pressure from the state and pressure from the church over teaching good old fashioned evangelical doctrine. I want to teach people to love Jesus and proclaim the message of the cross and resist the pressure to conform. Jesus was not a conformist.
I am committed to teaching traditional doctrine of the OT & NT and history with lots of training for the practical (pastoral) ministry. A lot of institutions have titles for their professors that do not reflect either sound doctrine or pastoral concerns, a lot of approaches have to do with self esteem and self realization. I don't understand what all that navel gazing has to do with one's ability and need to teach the historic faith. Of course, that is not to say we do not need character formation, that is essential, but it is a matter of being clearly focused on the essentials.
ROWAN WILLIAMS
VOL: It has been widely reported that Dr. Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury is going to resign though Lambeth Palace has said nothing either way. What is your take?
TURNBULL: I am not sure about the veracity that he will resign. The idea that Rowan Williams will return to an academic post at some point is not news. All that is at some point in the future. To my knowledge there has been no decision. He may do that and that would not be a surprise. Speculation about his successor is wide of the mark. Most candidates are 2-3 years older than Rowan therefore unlikely to succeed him including John Sentamu Archbishop of York and Richard Charters Bishop of London.
VOL: In your opinion does the former Bishop of Rochester, Dr. Michael Nazir Ali have a chance?
TURNBULL: It would be great if Michael could succeed Rowan. He is very controversial in the minds of some. In point of view of orthodox biblical faith Anglicans would find no better representative than Nazir Ali. He has the confidence of the Global South but within the UK he is probably not a realistic prospect. I should add that Michael serves as a senior fellow at Wycliffe Hall and brings great insights into our teaching.
WOMEN BISHOPS
VOL: Are women bishops inevitable in the Church of England? Can the momentum really be stopped?
TURNBULL: The issue of women bishops is causing much anxiety in the evangelical community in England and although there are various views the majority of evangelicals believe that there should be some legally provided protection for those who, in conscience, find the appointment of women bishops not to be in accordance with the scriptures. What is happening is that all 44 dioceses are voting individually on proposed legislation and it looks likely that it will be passed in most dioceses. In fact we now know that all but two dioceses have passed the legislation but around 12 dioceses also passed resolutions seeking more formal protection for those who have reservations.
VOL: What happens next?
TURNBULL: It will then come back to Synod in July 2012 where it will require two-thirds majority of bishops, clergy and laity voting separately. The vote will be close in the House of Laity, maybe then the archbishop will seek a compromise to offer protection in order to ensure its passage. You need 33% to block it, but they will wobble when they see the other houses go for it. There is a real prospect, but no certainty, that the Measure will in fact fail to gain the necessary votes in the House of Laity.
For the remaining Anglo-Catholics in the Church of England it is a real disaster and will lead to more defections to Rome after the vote.
VOL: What will be the impact on Evangelicals?
TURNBULL: The problem for the evangelical wing is that we are not that keen on bishops anyway and will carry on doing our own thing.
The Church of England will have women bishops and some of the existing bench of bishops can't wait to be the first to make such an appointment. That will create problems if women are appointed for the sake of it and for those parishes and clergy who cannot in conscience accept it. My genuine hope is that there will be some legally provided provision to enable both sides of the debate to coexist.
VOL: Will church attendance suddenly rocket if there are Women Bishops?
TURNBULL: None whatsoever. Most people are not interested and they do very little evangelism in the name of Jesus and it is therefore a distraction from the real mission of the church.
HOMOSEXUALS AND THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND
VOL: Where is the "gay" agenda going in the Church of England?
TURNBULL: It is only a matter of time before we have an attempted effort to appoint a bishop who is a practicing homosexual. Regrettably some people are already campaigning on the issue and can't wait till the opportunity arises. The problem for most orthodox Christian believers is that such an appointment would be contrary to Scripture.
VOL: Would that split the Church of England?
TURNBULL: It's very complicated in England because local churches have significant independence from their bishop and can safely ignore the bishop so there will not be a clean linear split. That explains why there won't be a split.
VOL: What is the difference between a TEC bishops' authority versus a CofE bishops' authority?
TURNBULL: It is amazing to us that TEC bishops have that power and authority and can determine the employment and future of a local priest. In England a bishop does not necessarily have that same authority at all.
VOL: In TEC a bishop has rights of visitation to a parish and has significant control over the priest and acts really as a key central ecclesiastical authority. A priest is obliged to receive a bishop once every three years.
TURNBULL: The history of the Church of England is that authority is diffused and dispersed and bishops have no power to impose their will on local churches. The local church is not ecclesiastically required to invite a bishop to his/her parish. All financial assessments are voluntary and could/should be drastically reduced. A bishop does not have the power to visit at will or to fire a priest without a disciplinary process, for example involving adultery.
VOL: There are some very real fundamental differences then?
TURNBULL: Yes. The situation in England is different from that in TEC and it is possible for parishes to exist within the Church of England without the same degree of oppression and most evangelicals have no intention of leaving the Church of England - mainly because the foundation documents are clearly Protestant and Reformed. In England most evangelical priests have a low opinion of the theology of bishops and also most of the occupants on the current bench in the House of Lords.
The Lords Spiritual as they are called number 26 in the House of Lords, and they love it for the preferment it offers and they enjoy the status it gives them and they can lead prayers. I welcome the Christian voice in the public square. However, they are rarely united and most wouldn't know how to lead anyone to Christ.
VOL: Former Archbishop George Carey and former Rochester Bishop Dr. Michael Nazir Ali have been quite vocal on the Culture Wars. What is your take on this?
TURNBULL: I admire and welcome both men's contribution to the debate on the clash of culture and the challenge to Christianity that comes from culture. Christianity has always been counter cultural not just submerged underneath the culture, especially in terms of secularization and Islam.
Both men have been very brave speaking out about most things. It is seen as very politically incorrect in the UK to do so. It is very brave of Nazir Ali. He is powerfully speaking up about the challenge of Islam because he has direct experience as well as being the [former] Bishop or Rochester. He was not listened to but he represents a strong standard of English public opinion. Both Christianity and Islam are missionary faiths and it is not surprising there are clashes of culture. We should not be afraid of Christianity being a missionary faith.
THE FUTURE OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND
VOL: What do you see as the future of the Church of England?
TURNBULL: The Church of England will be smaller in 10-15 years and my hope is it will be slimmer and fitter. It suffers from an enormous bureaucracy and a financial system that looks like a command economy and that needs to change. I hope we reduce the number of dioceses and reduce bureaucracy and appoint bishops, that is leaders who are spiritual, evangelical and church planters rather than estate agents and managers.
VOL: Should the CofE be disestablished?
TURNBULL: On balance to go down that road of disestablishment would be a distraction from evangelism and mission and church planting. The CofE is not a state church, it is the church in Europe that is least connected to the state and it is a common misunderstanding that the state controls the church or funds the church. It does neither. The establishment can give enormous opportunity for witness and evangelism. My responsibility is to train clergy so that they can make effective use of those opportunities to proclaim Jesus.
VOL: With the growing liberalization and feminization of the Church of England can you easily place graduates?
TURNBULL: Generally that is not a problem. There are occasional issues of mismatch of graduates from evangelical colleges but mostly graduates can find jobs and it is the best interest of the Church of England that they do so.
VOL: How important is C. S. Lewis to the British public?
TURNBULL: He is only a big name in regard his being the author of children's books. Some people would recognize the Christian analogy that is drawn from those books. Very few know him as a Christian apologist. I think he is better known as a Christian apologist in the US
CULTURE WARS
VOL: There have been several reported instances in the British press of English Christians losing their jobs and facing legal action for praying with people, wearing Christian symbols, B& B owners being fined for not allowing homosexual couples to stay in their place and generally standing up for their Christian convictions.
TURNBULL: The use of legal action against Christians has caused enormous anxiety and we have even had situation of people losing their jobs for having a Christian symbol in their vehicle while working for a city council. Legal action on behalf of Christians oppressed in this way has generally failed, which frankly, is quite depressing. I see no end in sight, but there could be a backlash if this continues.
EVANGELISM AND CHURCH PLANTING IN THE UK
VOL: How is evangelism and church planting doing in England?
TURNBULL: England is spiritually desperate and more in need of the message of the gospel than ever before. This is the land of Wesley and Whitfield and we need people raised up with a passionate love of Christ to proclaim his life changing message. God has acted before in England I believe he will do so again. We need to plant churches, declare it in our teaching and allow God to act.
England has a great missionary heritage and is now in need of missionaries returning to England with that same gospel we once took elsewhere, so I welcome all of those who come from the Global South because they have the spiritual experience, suffering and persecution and the clarity of biblical teaching which England so desperately needs.
VOL: The Occupy Wall Street movement has come to England and St. Paul's Cathedral became the focus of their protest resulting in three resignations including the Dean. It has also put the Bishop of London Richard Charters in a very awkward position. If you side with the protestors who believe the moneyed few control the assets of England then the cathedral suffers from lost income (about $23,000) a day. If you side with the cathedral who look like the money changers in the Temple you might incur the wrath of Jesus or at the very least the protestors if you call the Police in to take them away. What is your take?
TURNBULL: I do have sympathy, great sympathy, with St Paul's Cathedral who found themselves in an impossible position. I very much regret the Dean's resignation. The truth is that once the police were sent away and the protesters welcomed, any decision made by the Cathedral authorities was likely to be problematic. I personally do not have much sympathy with the protesters and the church has been made to look foolish. Most of the protesters are 'fair weather' agitators; they put up their (rather expensive) tents and go to sleep in their comfortable suburban homes at night.
Actually we do not wish to adopt the views of the protest groups, I do not think they represent any significant opinion in the UK they are a rather motley collection of Marxists and anarchists. We need the banks, we need wealth creators we need innovation. However, I also believe that it is a legitimate Christian concern to raise questions about the level and structure of remuneration in the banking industry, but the questions need to be asked in context and not linked to some bizarre protest. Equally I would say that the Cathedral is right not to pursue legal action to evict if possible. We should not use unnecessary legal means or force that is not a great witness. My point also though is we should also not 'baptize' protest movements as representing the views of Christ. God created man to work, to create wealth and we should encourage that, as well as asking appropriate questions about philanthropy, boundaries, distribution etc - but you cannot properly discuss the latter without the former.
VOL: I understand there might be a silver lining with an orthodox bishop called to take over the helm of the cathedral. Can you elaborate on that?
TURNBULL: English Cathedrals are another idiosyncrasy. They are independent of Bishops (again, rather vigorously so in some respects) and the Bishop cannot control the cathedral. The senior cleric is the Dean, appointed in consultation with the Bishop, but no exclusively so. Occasionally a Bishop may move to be a Dean, but it is not usual, slightly more often, a Dean moves to become a Bishop. To be Dean of St Paul's is an important and highly responsible job, I pray the right person is appointed.
VOL: Thank you Dr. Turnbull.
END
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