Mr. Sutton on the Resurgence of the Reformed Episcopal Church
Vis a vis:
http://juicyecumenism.com/2013/07/08/
and
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17771#.Udtt-p3D9jo
1. Those who have been impressed by Mr. Sutton’s spirited justification of the “new” REC might be interested in getting to know the gentleman further, through asking a few pertinent questions:
2. From what institution does Mr. Sutton claim to have an earned PhD? (Inquiring minds should be prepared to ask, at the same time, the P.O. Box in the UK this institution uses as its classroom, administrative and library facility).
3. What might have been the topic of the day last November when Mr. Sutton had a personal audience with Pope Benedict XVI?
4. In 1964, the membership of the Reformed Episcopal Church was listed as 7007 with 66 churches; in 2008, it listed 125 congregations but only 6040 members. Is this what Mr. Sutton means by resurgence?
5. Which of the following interesting statements was written by Mr. Sutton?
a) For the non-Christian, mysticism is that which is comprehensible in the universe. If this is true, then mystery is something that can be manipulated in the form of knowledge, liturgy, experience and so forth.
b) But, today, our Churches are filled with "pampered" individuals who are the product of too much direct attention. They float from Church to Church trying to find someone who will give his/her life for him.
c) Does this mean that man cannot have personal transcendence? No, the Psalmist says, “1 said, you are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High” (Psalm 82:6; John 10:34). In the words of Athanasius, the early Church Father and great defender of Trinitarianism, “God became man that man might become god.”
d) "Protestantism has failed to give the world a better Church."
e) Man is the son of God in a covenantal sense. He can be called a “god,” little g, without taking on Deity. This is not double talk, rather, it is covenantal talk.
f) All of the above
6. Who does Mr. Sutton think was responsible for the REC’s new “historical consciousness?”
7. What resurgence did the Theological Seminary of the Reformed Episcopal Church experience during the years it was under Mr. Sutton’s leadership? Give a year by year record of full time students during your tenure. Also, provide the same for the years 2000-2013, year by year.
8. Did Mr. (bp.) Roy Grote tell Mr. Sutton to scrub any and/or all internet references to Mr. Sutton's online articles about Reconstructionism and related subjects? If so, what articles, references, and connections? When and why? Explain the history.
9. What is Mr. Sutton's view of Federal Vision? Explain your relationship to the Shepherd controversy including views held amongst the Theonomists at Westminster Presbyterian Church, Tyler, TX.
10. Please explain your church affiliation while at Dallas Theological Seminary including your views of premillenial dispensationalism. Explain the theo-exegetico-historical circumstances of switching to postmillenialism.
11. Explain your call and time at Westminster Presbyterian Church, Tyler, TX and relationships with Rousas Rushdoony, Gary North, James Jordan and the elders? Why did you leave? Are you still a theonomist? Was this authoritarianism a personal and tempermental tendency or did you have long-term and genuine theological convictions about reconstructionism?
12. Explain in full the history, circumstances and relationships to Dr. Daniel Dunlap? Was Dr. Daniel Dunlap also an ex-Theonomist like yourself? Dr. Milton Fisher? Dr. Allen Guelzo? Dr. Geoffrey Hubler? Rev. Niel Bech? And other faculty members or administrative staff at The Theological Seminary of the Reformed Episcopal Church. What were the circumstances and reasons for leaving this seminary?
13. What happened to the study centre in Arkansas? Does it still exist? If not, why not?
14. Fully explain your relationship with Mr. (bp.) Walter Grunsdorf of the Anglican Province of America as well as other Anglo-Catholic individuals, churches and/or institutions. Include circumstances, times and places, including their views and your views on seven sacraments, purgatory, invocation of saints, prayers for the dead, Mariology, missals and breviaries, rosary beads, incense, icons, Massing vestments, Masses, Masses for the dead, seven councils, episcopacy as a divine institution or human institution, the anti-Reformation perspective, Tract XC, Tractarianism, John Newman, the Lady of Walsingham, legitimacy of Protestant (Lutheran, Presbyterian) ordinations, the Society of the Holy Cross, Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, justification by faith alone, sola scriptura, sola fide, solus Christus, Capernaitic-corporal-fleshly presence of the Ascended Redeemer in the Communion, free will, predestination, covenant theology, Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism, and the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England, Irish Articles of 1615, and the Westminster Confession of Faith.
15. Did Baptists or Bible Church Pastors ordain you? Provide the names of Baptist Pastors who ordained you as well as the time and circumstances. Following that, what Presbytery examined you? If a Presbytery, provide the name of the denomination and presbytery (we understand it was not the ARP, PCA, RPCGA, URC, URCNA, CRC or the OPC).
16. Explain the circumstances when you, Mr. Sutton, changed your views from the Baptist version of "believers' immersionistic baptism" to "infant baptism." Provide names, dates and influences in your thinking.
http://juicyecumenism.com/2013/07/08/
and
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17771#.Udtt-p3D9jo
1. Those who have been impressed by Mr. Sutton’s spirited justification of the “new” REC might be interested in getting to know the gentleman further, through asking a few pertinent questions:
2. From what institution does Mr. Sutton claim to have an earned PhD? (Inquiring minds should be prepared to ask, at the same time, the P.O. Box in the UK this institution uses as its classroom, administrative and library facility).
3. What might have been the topic of the day last November when Mr. Sutton had a personal audience with Pope Benedict XVI?
4. In 1964, the membership of the Reformed Episcopal Church was listed as 7007 with 66 churches; in 2008, it listed 125 congregations but only 6040 members. Is this what Mr. Sutton means by resurgence?
5. Which of the following interesting statements was written by Mr. Sutton?
a) For the non-Christian, mysticism is that which is comprehensible in the universe. If this is true, then mystery is something that can be manipulated in the form of knowledge, liturgy, experience and so forth.
b) But, today, our Churches are filled with "pampered" individuals who are the product of too much direct attention. They float from Church to Church trying to find someone who will give his/her life for him.
c) Does this mean that man cannot have personal transcendence? No, the Psalmist says, “1 said, you are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High” (Psalm 82:6; John 10:34). In the words of Athanasius, the early Church Father and great defender of Trinitarianism, “God became man that man might become god.”
d) "Protestantism has failed to give the world a better Church."
e) Man is the son of God in a covenantal sense. He can be called a “god,” little g, without taking on Deity. This is not double talk, rather, it is covenantal talk.
f) All of the above
6. Who does Mr. Sutton think was responsible for the REC’s new “historical consciousness?”
7. What resurgence did the Theological Seminary of the Reformed Episcopal Church experience during the years it was under Mr. Sutton’s leadership? Give a year by year record of full time students during your tenure. Also, provide the same for the years 2000-2013, year by year.
8. Did Mr. (bp.) Roy Grote tell Mr. Sutton to scrub any and/or all internet references to Mr. Sutton's online articles about Reconstructionism and related subjects? If so, what articles, references, and connections? When and why? Explain the history.
9. What is Mr. Sutton's view of Federal Vision? Explain your relationship to the Shepherd controversy including views held amongst the Theonomists at Westminster Presbyterian Church, Tyler, TX.
10. Please explain your church affiliation while at Dallas Theological Seminary including your views of premillenial dispensationalism. Explain the theo-exegetico-historical circumstances of switching to postmillenialism.
11. Explain your call and time at Westminster Presbyterian Church, Tyler, TX and relationships with Rousas Rushdoony, Gary North, James Jordan and the elders? Why did you leave? Are you still a theonomist? Was this authoritarianism a personal and tempermental tendency or did you have long-term and genuine theological convictions about reconstructionism?
12. Explain in full the history, circumstances and relationships to Dr. Daniel Dunlap? Was Dr. Daniel Dunlap also an ex-Theonomist like yourself? Dr. Milton Fisher? Dr. Allen Guelzo? Dr. Geoffrey Hubler? Rev. Niel Bech? And other faculty members or administrative staff at The Theological Seminary of the Reformed Episcopal Church. What were the circumstances and reasons for leaving this seminary?
13. What happened to the study centre in Arkansas? Does it still exist? If not, why not?
14. Fully explain your relationship with Mr. (bp.) Walter Grunsdorf of the Anglican Province of America as well as other Anglo-Catholic individuals, churches and/or institutions. Include circumstances, times and places, including their views and your views on seven sacraments, purgatory, invocation of saints, prayers for the dead, Mariology, missals and breviaries, rosary beads, incense, icons, Massing vestments, Masses, Masses for the dead, seven councils, episcopacy as a divine institution or human institution, the anti-Reformation perspective, Tract XC, Tractarianism, John Newman, the Lady of Walsingham, legitimacy of Protestant (Lutheran, Presbyterian) ordinations, the Society of the Holy Cross, Confraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, justification by faith alone, sola scriptura, sola fide, solus Christus, Capernaitic-corporal-fleshly presence of the Ascended Redeemer in the Communion, free will, predestination, covenant theology, Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism, and the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England, Irish Articles of 1615, and the Westminster Confession of Faith.
15. Did Baptists or Bible Church Pastors ordain you? Provide the names of Baptist Pastors who ordained you as well as the time and circumstances. Following that, what Presbytery examined you? If a Presbytery, provide the name of the denomination and presbytery (we understand it was not the ARP, PCA, RPCGA, URC, URCNA, CRC or the OPC).
16. Explain the circumstances when you, Mr. Sutton, changed your views from the Baptist version of "believers' immersionistic baptism" to "infant baptism." Provide names, dates and influences in your thinking.
5 comments:
I see that you are highly suspicious of Mr. Sutton.
I don't know the RE's very well. Before the days of Mr. Sutton, I understood they were a clearly Protestant, Evangelical, and certainly Reformed-leaning denomination; indeed, Bp. Cummins problems with the Episcopal Church back when were related to their openness to the Tractarian movement. And, I gather, Cummins and his associates had no problem with Protestant ordinations. So I gather that there's been a major sea change in that denomination since Mr. Sutton's adherence?
I have heard Mr. Sutton accused of taking the RE's in a sacerdotal direction. Do I gather that there's a fire under this smoke?
Peter:
The REC was Protestant, Evangelical and Calvinistic; they had very close relations with Westminster in Philadelphia.
And yes, Tractarianism was strongly and historically opposed. That is no longer true. There has been a "sea change."
And yes, I have suspicions about Mr. Sutton. Distrust is far too weak. Just waiting for his "next iteration."
There are about 100 more questions too; Mr. Sutton will need a notary's signature to any answered questions in an affidavit. Or, a video-documentary in a deposition.
While we retain the Book of Common Prayer, we have never left the Westminster Confession. Having said those two things, we here at Camp Lejeune are happily post-Anglican. And quite happily non-REC.
Regards,
Phil
Phil,
Regarding, "8. Did Mr. (bp.) Roy Grote tell Mr. Sutton to scrub any and/or all internet references to Mr. Sutton's online articles about Reconstructionism and related subjects? If so, what articles, references, and connections? When and why? Explain the history. "
What evidence is there for this assertion?
Joel, this went back to when Mr. Sutton came to and began at the Reformed Episcopal Seminary. Mr. Sutton had availed himself of the internet, as did some of his vocal sidekicks at Westminster Church, Tyler, TX. I cannot recall where or the general circumstances under which it was explicitly stated. I wish I had documentary evidence. Mr. Grote was the reported censor. I had many more contacts inside them back in the 90s. Ray went to be the President of the RES, but by that time...he was washing his hands of Reconstructionism, James Jordan, Gary North and others. By the early 90s, some were enthusing about his reception into the REC. I, on the other hand, being an "adopted" son of the REC with a Presbyterian background and degree, was not so sure. I and 2 others travelled to Ray's parish in Tyler, TX for a conference on Reconstructionism--investigatively. They caused quite a stir for OPC/PCAers in the 80s including a broad acceptance of Prof. Norman Shepherd's view of justification. Sutton was not the chief leader but was recognized amongst them. He was "their" Pastor until Tyler expoded with mutual animosities emerging. I was gone through the 90s to sea, deserts and more with Uncle Sam, but began getting reports of upsets within the REC. A Dan Dunlap, DPhil Ox, was one of Sutton's vocal "sidekicks" in the REC. He too was a Reconstructionist. It was a time of general obnoxiousness for many in the REC. I wish I had the titles of articles and the documentary evidence to support all this. I can verify one phone conversation with one OT Professor, Milton Fisher, PhD. Hopkins. I retired in the early 2000s and began investigating. I talked to Dr. Fisher about the seminary departures of people. He explicitly said Sutton never lost his Reconstructionist roots. Also, it had long been suspected that union or coalitions for the sake of power would occur (think ECT, etc.) Sutton's "ecumenism" is strange. BTW, I'm entirely for talking to all sorts of folks. I worked with Roman, Greek priests, all manner of Protestant dogs and cats, and several rabbis, working with them, talking with them, etc. Appreciating them too, but without giving up the "articles of faith." I'm not sure where Sutton is at these days. He left RES circa 1995. Started a school in/around Houston. The real disaster for me ultimately...Mr. Riches and Mr. Sutton pushing the REC towards a merger with APA, a rather aggressive Tractarian group with SSC Churchmen, the shock troops of the 19th century endeavoring to de-Protestanize the Church of England. Even Mr. Virtue didn't understand the attempted marriage of the two groups. That went one for several years, but finally failed c. 2011. Dr. Fisher complained of Sutton's Reconstructionism but also his Romewardizing. Dr. Fisher graduated from RES decades back, got his doctorate, did mission work with PCUS, and joined the REC/RES circa 70s. I wish we had the documentary record, but no one has done that. In fact, inquiry would probably meet with rebuttals. Riches and Sutton are not exactly gentlemanly when crossed or cross-examined. Just recently, Mr. Riches spoke at the 54th General Council for the REC, lamenting the "dizzying" (his word) number of "quirks and qurkinesses" of the REC in its history. That seemed rather overstated. Rather odd, but he has a larger agenda, in my estimation, "acceptance at the bigger table" by the developing realignment. Dr. Guelzo, PhD Un of Penn, formerly of the RES, is of this view as am I. Mr. Riches bent some principles in the "lust for acceptability." An investigative reporter should track all this down and record it, with interviews, and more. I did a fair amount of work in the early 2000s. But 2005ish, I called it quites with them.
Thanks.
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