Reformed Churchmen

We are Confessional Calvinists and a Prayer Book Church-people. In 2012, we remembered the 350th anniversary of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer; also, we remembered the 450th anniversary of John Jewel's sober, scholarly, and Reformed "An Apology of the Church of England." In 2013, we remembered the publication of the "Heidelberg Catechism" and the influence of Reformed theologians in England, including Heinrich Bullinger's Decades. For 2014: Tyndale's NT translation. For 2015, John Roger, Rowland Taylor and Bishop John Hooper's martyrdom, burned at the stakes. Books of the month. December 2014: Alan Jacob's "Book of Common Prayer" at: http://www.amazon.com/Book-Common-Prayer-Biography-Religious/dp/0691154813/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417814005&sr=8-1&keywords=jacobs+book+of+common+prayer. January 2015: A.F. Pollard's "Thomas Cranmer and the English Reformation: 1489-1556" at: http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Cranmer-English-Reformation-1489-1556/dp/1592448658/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420055574&sr=8-1&keywords=A.F.+Pollard+Cranmer. February 2015: Jaspar Ridley's "Thomas Cranmer" at: http://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Cranmer-Jasper-Ridley/dp/0198212879/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422892154&sr=8-1&keywords=jasper+ridley+cranmer&pebp=1422892151110&peasin=198212879

Showing posts with label Mark Dever. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Mark Dever. Show all posts

Saturday, July 6, 2013

SGM-Mahaneygate: Mahaney Takes a Nose-Dive

H/T to Joe Coker on the tip and lead.

C.J. Mahaney pulls out of T4G 2014


cj

Mahaney withdraws from T4G conference via ABP News

A May 23 statement of support for C.J. Mahaney by Mark Dever, Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan, is no longer found on the Together for the Gospel website. In its place is an announcement by Mahaney that he is withdrawing from the 2014 conference.



By Bob Allen

An evangelical preacher plagued by scandal over an alleged cover up of child sex abuse has withdrawn from a biennial Bible conference next year that he previously led in partnership with high-profile Calvinist leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention.
C.J. Mahaney, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, Ky., announced July 2 his decision to withdraw from participation in the 2014 Together for the Gospel conference out of concern for the event’s co-sponsors.

“Unfortunately, the civil lawsuit filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries, two former SGM churches and pastors (including myself), continues to generate the type of attention that could subject my friends to unfair and unwarranted criticism,” Mahaney said in a statement on the T4G website.

To Read More…….

Also, a roundup of links are below the picture. Where's old CJ in the lineup?

More on CJ and T4G 2014


CJ Mahaney Drops Out of 2014 Together for the Gospel Conference Due to Sovereign Grace Lawsuit

C.J. Mahaney pulls out of Louisville pastors conference

C.J. Mahaney Withdraws From T4G 2014 Conference

T4G Leaders Lack Integrity

C.J. Mahaney Withdraws from Together for the Gospel & Founders Remove Statement of Support

T4G and Integrity: Mahaney Is Gone and So Is the Infamous Statement

SGM-Mahaneygate: C.J. Mahaney pulls out of Louisville pastors conference


By fair inference, it appears that Mark Dever, Al Mohler and "Ole Lig" Duncan put pressure on Mahaney to step offstage and to take a rear seat. It appears that they--finally--dropped him like a "hot potato."

C.J. Mahaney pulls out of Louisville pastors conference

C.J. Mahaney pulls out of Louisville pastors conference



mahaney

Louisville pastor C.J. Mahaney — accused in a lawsuit of allegedly covering up sexual abuse by others in the denomination he once led — has withdrawn from the 2014 program of a prominent Louisville pastor’s conference that he founded along with Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Albert Mohler and two other pastors.

The Together for the Gospel (T4G) conference draws thousands to Louisville every two years, many of them men attracted to the revival of Calvinist doctrines related to the sovereignty of God and the authority of male leaders.

Mahaney said in a July 1 statement that his participation in the upcoming 2014 conference could create “a hindrance to this conference” due to his role in the lawsuit, but he said his withdrawal should not be seen as a reflection on the merits of the case itself.

A link to a statement of support for Mahaney issued by Mohler and the other two T4G founders in May no longer functions, nor does it appears on the T4G home page. The statement was already revised once to correct an inaccurate assertion that the lawsuit only targeted Mahaney because of his ministry work. (Excerpts from that statement are in a previous post.)

In June, the Southern Baptist Convention approved a resolution calling on their leaders to use the “highest sense of discernment” in affiliating with anyone with “questionable” practices or policies on sexual abuse.

The T4G home page lists LifeWay Christian Resources — the Southern Baptists’ publisher — as a “proud sponsor of T4G 2014.”

Here are excerpts from Mahaney’s statement:
“After much prayer, reflection and counsel I have decided to withdraw from participation in the 2014 Together for the Gospel conference. My reason for doing so is simple: I love these men and this conference and I desire to do all I possibly can to serve the ongoing fruitfulness of T4G. 
“Unfortunately, the civil lawsuit filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries, two former SGM churches and pastors (including myself), continues to generate the type of attention that could subject my friends to unfair and unwarranted criticism. 
“Though dismissed in May (and now on appeal), the lawsuit could prove a distraction from the purpose of this important conference. My withdrawal is not intended to communicate anything about the merits of the suit. My decision simply reflects the reality that my participation could create a hindrance to this conference and its distinct purpose of serving so many pastors. My strong desire is to make sure this doesn’t happen. I believe the most effective way I can serve my friends who have supported me, and continue to support me, is by not participating in the 2014 conference.”
Plaintiffs have petitioned a Maryland court to reconsider its dismissal of a lawsuit filed on behalf of 11 plaintiffs alleging Sovereign Grace Ministries and its member churches covered up sexual abuse by SGM pastors and members. The court recently ruled that most of the plaintiffs waited too long to sue.
Mahaney was president of the Sovereign Grace Ministries church network for three decades until earlier this year. It moved its offices from Maryland to Louisville last year. Mahaney remains pastor at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, which launched last year and meets at an eastern Jefferson County hotel.

Mahaney co-founded T4G with Mohler, Southern Baptist pastor Mark Dever of Washington, D.C., and Presbyterian Church in America pastor Ligon Duncan of Mississippi. Mahaney’s statement did not address what role he might have with the conference beyond 2014.

Wednesday, October 17, 2012

SGM-Mahaneygate: SGM Responds to Filed Lawsuit


http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Statement-by-Sovereign-Grace-Ministries-on-Reported-Lawsuit.aspx 
Please be aware of the following press release.
October 17, 2012

Statement by Sovereign Grace Ministries on Reported Lawsuit

LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY – Today, Sovereign Grace Ministries Director of Finance and Administration, Tommy Hill, released the statement below regarding a reported lawsuit on October 17, 2012:

It has come to the attention of Sovereign Grace Ministries through media outlets that a lawsuit has been filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries related to allegations of child abuse apparently arising in the 1980s and 90s. To date, Sovereign Grace Ministries has not been served with any such lawsuit nor does it have a copy of the lawsuit. Sovereign Grace Ministries is not in a position to comment on the allegations of the reported lawsuit. Child abuse in any context is reprehensible and criminal. Sovereign Grace Ministries takes seriously the Biblical commands to pursue the protection and well being of all people, especially the most vulnerable in its midst, little children.

Sovereign Grace Ministries is a family of over 80 churches, primarily in the United States with the goal of proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ both locally and globally.

For more information, please contact Tommy Hill at thill@sovgracemin.org

Tuesday, July 10, 2012

SGM-Mahaneygate: C. J. Mahaney v. Josh Harris

We have renamed this dispute "Mahaney v. Harris."  There has been a controlled, misguided, and harmful trial of original jurisdiction, full of procedural and substantive failures.  Leave it to dumb ass clerics without law backgrounds to foster such.  However, additionally, Bully Mahaney controls and controlled the appellate and Supreme Court, courts of review.  Which means this.  There are no courts of review, just CJ, Connolly, and Loftness's "tap dancing on Broadway." Although Mahaney is a man of diminished capacities, a small intellect, no academic attainments, and constricted feelings (due to narcissism), he remains liable for his misdeeds.  A dumb ass who runs over a child while speeding through a residential area is still liable. In fact, in view of CJ's serious limits, RA believes he needs to return to school for several years and go into monastic retirement;  a humble man would welcome it;  otherwise, he presents a continuing danger to gullible, ill-informed, and credulous people.  Like our state and federal courts, which are open to the public, the same obtains in Mahaney v. Harris.  Of course, the tyrants oppose such.  It's called fear, anger, hostility and even desperation. Here’s Brent’s recap of Mahaney v. Harris.


Jul 10, 2012

An Important Recap of Joshua Harris’ Powerful Prophetic Word to SGM a Year Ago Today


Tuesday, July 10, 2012 at 7:52AM

What follows are excerpts from an extremely powerful message by Joshua Harris preached one year ago today at Covenant Life Church. He spoke like a prophet and without fear or hesitation. He shared openly and honestly. He put the blame for problems in SGM on himself and other leaders. It was a prophetic word to the whole movement. Dave Harvey and Jeff Purswell rejected it. C.J. despised it.

In this message on “The Father’s Discipline,” Joshua points out how SGM is being spanked, humiliated and brought low. C.J. has openly repudiated this divine perspective. That’s one of the reasons he is still clinging to sinful habits and practices and cannot lead the movement into any kind of moral reformation. C.J. doesn’t believe he is being spanked, humiliated or brought low by God let alone the movement. He can’t because he views himself as the victim of evil men and not a son in need of discipline by his heavenly Father.

C.J. and John Loftness (Chairman of the Board) see this past year as primarily the work of Satan brought about by gossipers and slanderers (Ambassadors of Reconciliation takes a similar approach) and those wanting to exploit C.J.’s meager confession at CLC in order to harm him. That is offensive to God. This message by Joshua is of far greater worth than the entire AoR Report to the SGM Board of Directors on April 10, 2012.

If C.J., Dave Harvey, John Loftness, Mickey Connolly and other SGM leaders had believed and applied this message, it would have resulted in personal and corporate transformation over the past year (like Nineveh with Jonah). Instead the word of the Lord has been rejected and the discipline of the Lord has been taken lightly. Nothing of substance has changed. C.J.’s disposition has worsened.

This message from the Lord (through Joshua) reverberated throughout Sovereign Grace churches. It was a clarion call. God was testing the heart of every pastor in the movement to see how he would respond. A few responded with scoff, others with intrigue, some with alarm, how many with sackcloth and ashes?

Those who really heard the word of the Lord (“Verily, verily I say unto you!”) know the problems in SGM are primarily ethical – “out of the heart” – not procedural. Those pastors who have majored on polity (how we are governed) have missed the mark (are those governing qualified). That’s why C.J. continues as a senior pastor and President of SGM. What is on the outside of the cup may look cleaner in November or December but what’s on the inside of the cup matters most to God and will bear fruit that lasts.

Today and tomorrow in Louisville, Kentucky, SGM pastors from all over the United States are meeting with the Polity Committee co-chaired by C.J. and Phil Sasser. Elderships will have the opportunity to present their view on how SGM churches should, or should not be, governed by the Board of Directors and Leadership Team. It is an important time but for reasons other than polity. I pray every presenter appeals to C.J., the interim Board, and the Leadership Team to turn from the pride, unteachableness, independence, deceit and hypocrisy they have modeled the past year. I hope each of the 24 papers includes a clearly spelled out plan to address the ethical decline in SGM. If that does not happen the day is for naught. There needs to be a moral challenge not just a challenge to polity.

It’s revealing that C.J. will meet with the SGM pastors for two days to hear their thoughts on polity (which he does have to follow in the least) but was completely unwilling to meet with the SGM pastors in the context of an open hearing where all could hear charges presented against C.J. and observe his response to those charges before objective judges.

So here we are again. Another historic time for C.J. in the providence of God. Will he take the initiative and ask men to register their concerns for him or tell him their honest thoughts or ask him hard questions about his behavior this past year? Of course not! He could have and should have done that long ago. Instead, he will listen to polity presentations. He will compliment. He will thank. He will crack jokes. Then he will go home with his handpicked committee and implement what he and Phil want. Everyone knows the committee is full of members that support their polity.

So debate SGM polity but call for contrition, humbling, and holiness. These presentations by the pastors regarding the reform of polity will accomplish nothing if C.J., Phil, et al. are determined to go their own way, make no radical reforms, and leave half the SGM pastors and members in their wake.

Pastors, I know everyone will be on their best “Gospel loving” behavior today but don’t confuse that for godliness or humility. There are serious break downs in relationship. John Loftness and Mickey Connolly have been slandering the Covenant Life pastors. The proof has been presented. That is one reason Paul Buckley led the meeting on Friday with the CLC pastors. John and Mickey were mostly silent. C.J., Dave and Jeff were absent. That’s why it was a “good meeting” according to Joshua.

The hardliners on the Board recently presented the decision for C.J.’s return as President as unanimous when it was not. Deceit continues. C.J., John and Mickey have been operating independently of other Board Members and not keeping them informed. There has been little accountability for C.J. personal like the outcome of his meeting with all the Florida pastors in May. I could go on and on. There is an elephant of sin in the middle of the room as you meet. Don’t pretend it is not there and don’t embrace the false theology of “judge not.” There is a tremendous need for discernment and courage in the form of correction.

In these contexts, there tends to be a lot of flattery and little honesty. A lot of charm but little transparency. Don’t be fooled. I remember Prater, Boettcher, and Boomsma listening intently to my presentation at the December panel review only to burn me at the stake later in their report and not include a word I said or any of the evidence I presented. I was forbidden from calling witnesses in my support, cross examining witnesses against me, or even knowing who was presenting the false testimony.

Mark, Warren and Ron’s report was utterly abusive and totally unrelated to the question at hand. They were on a witch hunt, not in search of the truth regarding C.J.’s sinful influence on Harvey, Kauflin, and Emerson and their sinful dismissal of me from ministry. I can’t put into words the excruciating pain I experienced reading their report and knowing I had been set up yet again.

C.J. and Phil may listen and compliment your presentations but the proof will be in the pudding. Do they actually change SGM polity? Far more importantly, does C.J. take the opportunity today and tomorrow to detail the discipline of God in his life the past year?

There is nothing to encourage me (and much to discourage me) but I pray he humbles himself with specific confession that results in real reconciliation and restitution. This is C.J.’s last chance. No pastor or church should stay a day longer in SGM if these two days go by and there isn’t profuse confession.

If C.J., the interim Board, the new Board, the Leadership Team, the Polity Committee don’t respond with humility to God’s dealings not even the outside of the Tupperware will get cleaned in November or December. Heed the call to let go of disobedience! This is my 100th post. The call to let go of disobedience has been in force for a year. Repent quickly of your pride, deceit, hypocrisy, love of reputation, and lording. The anger of the Lord has been aroused and is evident round about you. Break before you are broken.

Matt 23:26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

Nahum 1:6 Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger? His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him.

Listen now to Josh (including Josh)!

These are excerpts from the audio with the minutes in brackets. The entire message can be heard at .

It Is as Bad as It Seems [00:00-06:42]

We are walking through what is without any exaggeration the most difficult challenge that we have faced as a church. Last week C.J. Mahaney, a man who help to found this church and led it for 27 years, a man who is a father in the faith to many of us, a dear friend, a beloved teacher of the gospel, who has served as the President of our network of churches called Sovereign Grace. Last week C.J. stepped down from his role as President because of accusations that were being brought to him from several different men, one in particular, accusations of hypocrisy, coercion, deceit, sinful judgment and unentreatability. C.J. has confessed to some of these sins. He disagrees with others but he is committed to searching his life and inviting others into his life to examine these accusations more carefully. He is taking a leave of absence so that an independent panel, a group of people outside of our church, outside of our family of churches, can look into these accusations and provide an objective evaluation of his character and leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries.

The primary person bringing these accusations is a man named Brent Detwiler who helped to found Sovereign Grace and served closely with C.J. for many years on the leadership team. In years past Brent has preached here at CLC and is a friend to many. Brent has compiled three documents, totally over 600 pages of emails and meeting notes and his own reflections in bringing these accusations to C.J. of his sin. And he sent these to C.J., one at a time over the past 16 months and when efforts at a process of mediation could not be agreed upon the three documents were sent to all the pastors of Sovereign Grace, and subsequently someone posted them on the internet this past week. In just a few days they have been down loaded and read by thousands of people and many, many, more people will be reading them in the coming days.

The accusations and the details that are shared in these documents not only accused C.J. but they also, understandably so, call into question the judgment and the integrity of the leaders around C.J. including myself. People are asking, ‘What did people know and when did they know it? What did C.J. actually do? Is Brent’s interpretation of all these events true and why didn’t the men around C.J. do more to challenge him and help him?

We are going to gathering as a church tonight and we are going to begin a process of seeking to answer these questions. Tonight’s meeting won’t be the only meeting. It will just be the first conversation, the first dialogue in a series of important conversations that we need to have as a church family. And you have the commitment of your pastors that we will speak honestly and clearly and tell you about what exactly we have seen and what we’ve known at every point along the way whether that puts us in a favorable light or unfavorable light. We are committed to walking in the light with you.

In the midst of a crisis like this one, the temptation for a leader like me is to stand before the people that I’ve been called to lead and say two things. It is not as bad as it seems. And it’s not your leaders’ fault. But I can’t say that because it wouldn’t be true. It is as bad as it seems. And it is the fault of your leaders. And we desperately need the help of God and the wisdom and the accountability of the people who have looked to our leadership to sort through this mess.

And that’s why today and I struggle to know what to preach to you today friends. But that’s why today I think the most important topic I can teach on from God’s word is the discipline of the Lord. My role in this moment is to the best of my ability help you to interpret from God’s word what is taking place. And I don’t claim to have all wisdom or all knowledge but to the best of my attempts to pray and understand what is taking place, this is what I see.

Our focus does not need to be on our perceived enemies. I believe God would have your leaders humbly acknowledge that it is our sin and our failure and our faulty structures that have brought this trouble. I don’t believe that these events are an accident. I believe they are the loving discipline of our heavenly Father. And no matter whose fault this is, this is what we cannot get around. This is what is unavoidable. We cannot get around the fact that our church and our entire denomination is being publicly spanked. We are being humiliated. We are being brought low. God is getting our attention. And the word of God tells us in Hebrews 12 that he is treating us as sons.

Let Go of Disobedience [13:20-15:10]

And that’s what we do when we try to run the race in the Christian life clinging to sinful habits and ungodly practices. They weigh us down, they cling to us. And so God says to us, ‘Lay them aside. Lay them aside. Let go of them.’ And sometimes we do and sometimes illuminated by the Holy Spirit, convicted of our sin, we lay the sin aside and we run faster.

But there are other times when we refuse to let go and we hold them close to us for whatever reason, we don’t want to depart with them. We don’t want to go forward without them. And this is where God’s discipline comes into play because God loves us so much that he refuses to allow his children to keep running with those idols and those weights and that sin clinging to them. So in his love he helps us to let go of those things that we are carrying. He helps us to let go. Isn’t that what discipline is? It is someone in authority helping us to let go of disobedience. That’s a nice way to put it. It is pain being brought into our lives. It is challenges being brought into our lives. It is a shaking being brought into our lives that forces us to let go and look to Jesus!

God Gets Our Attention [34:08-38:19]

When we try to come up with discipline for ourselves, it might be a slight discomfort but it won’t really hurt. It won’t bring about the real change that we need. Here’s the point. You will not bring consequences into your own life capable of getting at the most serious issues of your soul. You and I can never do that. We would never write up that plan. The plan necessary to get at the deepest issues of our heart. The real idols that we are holding on to. The real things. We need God to do that. Only God can do that. If we could lay them down by ourselves we would have done so long ago. And that’s why it has to hurt. It has to be painful because only God can bring it and only God knows exactly what we need to let go of those idols. A part of us will hate it as we go through it.

And so I just want to ask you a question. How could God discipline a whole church? How could God discipline a whole denomination? What possible set of circumstances could he create that would force entire family of churches to recognize, to acknowledge, to turn away from deeply entrenched and flawed patterns of leadership and practice and church government? What could God possibly do to get an entire movement to do that?

Well let me just propose a scenario for you. He could allow a chorus of critics on the internet to point out the most glaring failures and inconsistencies of that movement in an unrelenting way. He could allow the issues that they didn’t want to deal with, or have the nerve to change, to be aired in public. He could allow a breakdown in a relationship and the stubbornness of leaders to culminate in a set of circumstances so that all the mistakes and all the relational sins at the top levels of leadership would be written down and posted on the internet for the entire world to read. Do you think that would work?

Brothers and sisters, ultimately it doesn’t matter if the people who are attacking us are unkind or unethical or angry. Imagine how the people of God when he brought the nation of Assyria to attack them. Do you think that seemed fair? And yet God was after their hearts. He is after our hearts.

God, and God alone, has brought this unthinkable sequence of events about. There are no accidents in his universe. He disciplines those he loves and it hurts and that’s the point. And that leads us to point number four. And that is, that we must be trained by it. God disciplines because he loves, it hurts, and we must be trained by it. We must be trained by it.

Resisting the Discipline of the Lord [39:17-41:00]

There is so much joy in becoming more like our Lord and more pleasing to him. When we let go of those weights and those sins that we are carrying we are not going to be sad, we are going to be joyful. It is going to be better. Do you see that promise that God is holding out for us? But we have to allow the discipline to train us. You see there is a response involved on our part. There is a response involved on our part. It is to those who are trained by it. We can either choose to be trained by the discipline or we can resist it.

Look back at verse 5 [in Hebrews 12], because it tells us some of the temptations that we face when we encounter discipline and how we can resist it. Quoting from Proverbs 3 it says, ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord nor be weary when reproved by the him.’ When God corrects you don’t become weary. So the first potential way that we can resist or wrongly respond to the discipline of the Lord is to regard it lightly. To not take it seriously. To not see it for what it is. To kind of blow it off and say, “Oh well, you know this is just happening, it’s not that big of deal. We’ll just get through this and we’ll just kind of go on with business as usual. We’ll just kind of keep on doing our thing and this will pass. There is no lesson for us in this. We just need to tweak a few things. Everything will be fine. That is taking the discipline of the Lord lightly.”

Trained by Discipline [47:13-51:34]

Please pray for me. Please pray for all the people that are involved that we would be trained by this discipline. Not that we would just get through it. Not that any one person would be preserved, or not preserved in a position, but that the Lord would train us through this discipline. That we would receive and benefit from everything that he wants to teach us no matter how painful it is for anyone through the process. That we would not short circuit or try to run away from this process.

I just want to share with you some of the issues that God is beginning to reveal in my own heart. I am not seeking to speak for any other person but myself. In this season of shaking, these are the things I believe God wants us to let go of. I am seeing in my own life a spiritual pride and self-righteousness. You know for too long I had the attitude that we were the best church and the best family of churches, the best network of churches in the world. That we had a corner on sound doctrine. That we were both charismatic and Reformed. That we were the best at applying truth and living out our faith and I had a condescending attitude toward other churches. I remember having a condescending attitude toward my own parents and their church. And that is just pride. God is shaking that out of my hands. May God shake that out of all of our hands. I understand why people in our community have viewed CLC as elitist and exclusive because I think that has been in some of our hearts. I am not accusing all of you of this, but I think it is there. I think we need to cry out to God to help us, to reveal it if it is there.

I am seeing an overconfidence in leaders. Now don’t get me wrong. I believe we need leaders. God’s word clearly states that leadership and pastors are his idea. But I also believe in light of the doctrine of sin that we need appropriate checks and balances from the congregation. Our church government as a movement is broken and it is confused. And we have not moved quickly enough or decisively enough to fix it. And for too long we have assumed, as pastors, that we could handle everything on our own. And we have not recognized enough the gifts and the wisdom and the work of the Holy Spirit in the congregation to help us do the work and the leadership that God has called us to do. And that must change. That will change.

I know there is a lot more for me to see. So many of these things have been things I have seen in glimpses. I’ve wrestled with in private. I’m sorry, I’m sorry that it has taken me so long to recognize and acknowledge these things. I don’t have answers or neat solutions. I don’t have a great plan to roll out for you. But I want to invite you the members of this church to partner with your pastors and to join us in the hard and painful process of laying aside the weights and sin. The weights of faulty organizational structures, faulty church government, faulty practices, sinful attitudes. Help us as we sort through this before the Lord. As we lay aside these weights. As we seek to embrace all that God has for us in this discipline process.

##

Post Script - SGM Says Presentations Are Confidential

The SGM Board has forbidden all pastors from sharing the presentations they have received with anyone who isn’t a pastor (that’s SGM polity at work). Quote: "These resources are confidential materials that are intended for the sole use of SGM pastors." Once again “confidentiality” is used as a justification for concealment. Not even the results of Bible study can be shared with the people of SGM.

Every church member in SGM should be able to view the various presentations being made by other church leaders so they can learn and be part of the process in determining the future of SGM not only their local church. Who is SGM to allow the pastors to receive copies but not allow the members to receive copies? This injunction should be rejected.

What’s to hide? Nothing! Every church member should ask their pastors to post their polity presentation. There are 24 presentations but 100 churches. The other 76 should benefit from the work of the 24. So if your pastors refuse to provide their polity paper, you know they don’t believe in “Jesus ruled, elder led and congregationally accountable” polity. They want you to be ignorant and excluded from being a vital part of the discussion. 

Tuesday, April 10, 2012

Celebrity Pastor: Indecent Exposure (T4G 2012), Including Mahaney

This is a 1-minute blurb from T4G.  Originally, Dr. Carl Trueman, we've been told, was to host this discussion group.  It then was transformed into a panel with "three celebs."  EVERY T4G speaker is rejected by RA in view of the far superior classics in the history of the church.  As if an Al Mohler "expatiation" (called a sermon)--usually about 40 minutes--is better than 40 minutes of Bible reading. Cranmer used to think so, that is, the supremacy of the Bible read abundantly in the congregation...again, the power of wide reading of the Word of God. 


http://t4g.org/media/2012/02/celebrity-pastor-indecent-exposure/

Celebrity Pastor: Indecent Exposure?

Sunday, March 18, 2012

C.J. Mahaney: Mountebank, Ticket-Huckster, Circus Clown, and Pawn for Mohler, Dever, & Duncan

Notice C.J. Mahaney in this video for Together for the Gospel

The ever-head bobbing, arm-gesticulating, mind-numbling, enthusiast, fanatic, revolutionary, entertaining, amusing and attention-grabbling Circus Clown.  My daughter would say, "Dad, he's EMO." As a certified high schooler, C.J. that is, he's done well entertaining 1000s...except at Sovereign Grace and his home church, Covenant Life, which he founded but from which he's been fugitive.  Appeals from Covenant Life for accountability to the Elders has been rebuffed.

He's a Perpetual Mountebank, but he draws a crowd and drives up "ticket sales," a big plus in American revivalism. 

I spent 6 months studying this Clown. Mahaney is a narcissistic Baptacostalist with Romanizing, Pentecostalist and "Shepherding Movement" roots. A man with a very poor track record...except for sectarianism and enthusiasm...except for hubris relative to other true churches "...we're the best...")...except for alot of abuse, authoritarianism, pride and more....except for entertainment and enlarged ticket sales he affords at his "Freak Shows." His books are positively dreary and shallow.  I knew something was substantially amiss when the research started. Time only confirmed--over and over and over again, and then some more--the initial instinct that he's a Mountebank and Used Car Salesman. As an old BCP man myself, being shaped by its Reformed doctrines, worship, and quiet piety...and instincts that are shaped therein and thereby...you can smell Mahaney at 8000 yards out.   He's dangerous to the naive and gullible. But many Baptists and Baptyerians, like Lig Duncan, like him. 

Watch him work in the video below as he entertains his "Cage Handlers."  It's one specimen and there are worse examples.  One of them in the video, Al Mohler, wonders if they can get C.J. under control.

As a Mountebank, he knows how to work and manipulate his crowd.  He really is good at it, for the naive that is. However, once one "catches on to him," he attempts to drive off criticism, and, failing that, he runs.  Covenant Life got "onto him" and Mahaney was last seen speeding out of the parking lot.  Heading out to Kentucky with few promises of even a "going away party" at Covenant Life.  Doesn't look like old Ceej will be returning any time soon.

The historians, in due time, will catch up with it.  Although, there isn't much of merit or interest on Mahaney or SGM other than as another study of anti-intellectualism in American religious history. Those who know C.J. already have "his number."  For those not knowing about Mahaney, they'll have to suffer from the revivalist judgments of the T4G-leaders.  One can hear the back room comments by the gate-keepers and accountants: "Old Ceejie-boy...he's good for sales and numbers, fellas...we gotta keep em.'"

http://t4g.org/media/2012/02/panels-the-new-t4g-format/

Thursday, March 8, 2012

Horton: Church Membership Requires Affirmation of Covenant and Infant Baptism

Therefore we detest the error of the Anabaptists, who are not content with the one baptism they have once received, and moreover condemn the baptism of the infants of believers, who we believe ought to be baptized and sealed with the sign of the covenant, as the children in Israel formerly were circumcised upon the same promises which are made unto our children (Belgic Conf., Art. 34; cf. Heidelberg Catechism Q. 74).


We concur. Mike Horton offers his gracious but firm response to modern Anabaptists, Baptacostals, and other Revivalists.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/03/05/membership-requires-affirmation-of-infant-baptism-a-presbyterian-and-reformed-response/?comments#comments

Membership Requires Affirmation of Infant Baptism: A Paedobaptist Response

Editors' Note: How do baptism and church membership relate? What are the biblical bounds? Baptists debate, "Must one be baptized as a believer in order to join a church?" Meanwhile, Presbyterians and other paedobaptists consider, "Should one who'd refuse to let his children be baptized be permitted to join?"

Our hope is that this three-day forum will, by God's grace, drive us all to consider Scripture's teaching anew and disagree charitably when necessary.
-------------------------

The renaissance of evangelical Calvinism today is a marvelous gift of God. Yet as many across widely varying denominations embrace the doctrines of grace, the tendency is often to downplay their distinctives as relatively unimportant. Especially as people move back and forth not only between local churches but denominations, often simply looking for a church that preaches the Word faithfully, there can be an impatience with honest scruples. It's often said that baptism is a "secondary issue." Traditionally, both sides in the debate have wrestled over whether they can even accept each other's profession of faith as valid for membership. That's hardly secondary.

Baptism itself has become so secondary in evangelical circles that the most outrageous view in many minds is one that makes this issue decisive in church membership. However, Baptists and paedobaptists are stuck. If our conscience is bound by Scripture, then we can hardly consider as indifferent something Christ' ordained as essential in the Great Commission. So I respect Baptist brothers who would not admit me into membership or to the Lord's Table. They are following what they believe Scripture to teach in this matter and for that submissiveness I respect them.

Historically, Reformed and Presbyterian churches have required professing members and their children to be baptized. In the former, arising from Continental Reformed sources, all church members confess the Three Forms of Unity (Belgic Confession, Heidelberg Catechism, Canons of Dort) as the faithful summary of Scripture. What this means is that in Reformed churches historically, only those who affirmed the inclusion of children in covenant baptism could be members. Especially in the U.S., Presbyterian churches came to require only officers to subscribe the Westminster Standards. In Presbyterian churches, it has meant that all of the children of members should be baptized. What to do if they're not is a matter of some debate and variation.
I affirm, on the basis of Scripture, the traditional Reformed and Presbyterian view that it is "a great sin to condemn or neglect" baptism (Westminster Confession, Ch. 28.5) and that "also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized" (Ch. 28.4; cf. Shorter Catechism, Q. 95). The Belgic Confession adds,

Therefore we detest the error of the Anabaptists, who are not content with the one baptism they have once received, and moreover condemn the baptism of the infants of believers, who we believe ought to be baptized and sealed with the sign of the covenant, as the children in Israel formerly were circumcised upon the same promises which are made unto our children (Belgic Conf., Art. 34; cf. Heidelberg Catechism Q. 74).

I'm a minister in the United Reformed Churches in North America. Our Church Order requires, "The consistory shall see to it that baptism is requested and administered as soon as feasible" (Art. 56).

All of this entails, of course, that those who wish to become members must at least be willing and ready to present unbaptized children for baptism. Any who refuse to do so are in violation of what we are convinced is the express command of our Lord. Church discipline always begins with gentle admonition and instruction, usually in private, leading hopefully to repentance. However, it would be unwise to admit into full communion believers who are already in principle unwilling to change their mind on the matter.
Some in our circles have suggested that this disciplinary action pertains only to those who are actually violating Christ's will. In this view, someone who remains convinced of adult-only baptism (but is not withholding the sacrament from his or her own children) may be a member (though not an officer). I have heard good arguments on both side of that difficult pastoral issue and remain open on the point. The crucial concern is to ensure that members recognize their children as the Lord's heritage and not withhold the sign and seal of his covenant blessings. Baptism is not just an interesting doctrine we discuss, but a practice that shapes our life---personally and corporately.

To some brothers and sisters (Reformed/Presbyterian as well as Baptist), all of this may sound somewhat jarring---and exclusionary. However, there are a few things to bear in mind:
  1. Baptism either is or is not to be administered to the children of the covenant; if it is, then it is a sin not to do something God has commanded. The Baptist position at least historically is to consider it a sin to baptize infants (and to practice an alternative to immersion). Presbyterian and Reformed churches confess that baptism is a means of grace and that it is a sin to withhold the sign and seal of the covenant of grace from our children. Of course, it is not a sin of intentional rebellion. Nevertheless, both sides have regarded the rival decision as a transgression of God's will. That follows inexorably from the conviction that God does clearly reveal what we are to do on this question. My Baptist friends believe that I am not only doctrinally in error but am doing something against God's will when I baptize covenant children. Although I disagree, I applaud their consistency. It's beyond the scope of your question to defend covenantal baptism here (though I do in various places, especially The Christian Faith). However, if there is truly a parallel between circumcision and baptism as the signs and seals of the same covenant of grace, then it is a serious sin to withhold it from our children (Gen 17:9-14).
  2. The consistent Baptist view is actually more exclusionary. We accept as valid all baptisms performed with the Word and the water (whatever the mode) in the Triune Name. Those from a Reformed or Presbyterian church who wish to change membership to a Baptist church are required ordinarily to renounce their baptism as invalid. To reject the validity of one's baptism---and, by extension, the validity of baptisms administered in another communion---strikes at the heart of the church's unity.
  3. Of course, many Baptists as well as Reformed and Presbyterians today downplay the significance of these arguments on both sides. Doing so allows for more flexibility in the movement back and forth between different communions. However, it cannot fail to impress upon the actual members themselves that their baptism (whether as adults or as infants) is of little consequence. At least from my reading of the New Testament, that would be the most tragic position of all.
Recommended Resources: G. W. Bromiley, Children of Promise (Eerdmans); Danny Hyde, Jesus Loves the Little Children (Reformed Fellowship); Bryan Chapell, Why Do We Baptize Infants? (P&R); John Murray, Christian Baptism (P&R); Edmund P. Clowney, The Church (IVP); Michael Brown and Danny Hyde, Called to Serve: Essays for Elders and Deacons (Reformed Fellowship).
-------------------------
Also in the series on baptism and church membership:

Michael Horton is the J. Gresham Machen professor of systematic theology and apologetics at Westminster Seminary California. His books include Putting Amazing Back into Grace, Christless Christianity, and The Gospel-Driven Life.

Sunday, November 20, 2011

SGM-Mahaneygate: Dave Harvey and SGM Mistakes

"We're a young denomination" and "we've made plenty of mistakes,"  Mr. Dave Harvey says.  Try hubristic--from day one until now--to even exist as if 100s of fine churches hadn't existed in the last 30 years.  The presumption and (unfounded) assumption is "we're the best product out there."  The foundation of SGM was/is based on hubris.  Here's the latest from Dave Harvey, the acting President of SGM, serving during Mahaney's Leave-Non-Leave of Absence.

How to pray for Sovereign Grace Ministries



Hey folks,

I wanted to take a minute now that the craziness of our conference is over to talk directly to our friends, including those with critiques for us. Actually, I wanted to ask you a favor. Could you please pray for us?

See, here's the thing. In listening to AOR, our pastors and even hearing Ted Kober’s message at the conference, we’re freshly aware that we're a young movement that's still trying to figure a lot of stuff out. We don't have a long history like the Baptists or the Presbyterians or the Methodists. We've only been around for about 30 years! Relatively speaking, we're still new kids around town (and that’s no “Get out of jail free” card for making mistakes—just a reminder that we should expect to have a lot to learn). But, over those 30 years God has blessed Sovereign Grace with a significant amount of growth. We're really grateful to God for that growth—it’s been thrilling to see the gospel fruit in new churches and new friends in many parts of the world! But we’re learning that our growth has outstripped some of the ways we do things. And it’s not just that. As we've grown we’ve made mistakes. Plenty of mistakes. Some of those mistakes have hurt people. In fact maybe you're one of those people. If so, we still want to hear your story. And if you’ve been hurt by things we’ve done wrong, we want the opportunity to say we’re sorry.


Right now we're in a time of identifying the different areas that Sovereign Grace Ministries needs to change. We’re pursuing as much counsel in this area as possible and we’re doing a lot of diagnosing. We've read your e-mails and heard many of your critiques. We're not ignoring you or trying to shut you out of the conversation. On the contrary, the whole Group Reconciliation process led by AOR is designed so that we can listen to those who have a perspective and learn where we need to grow. We need others to help us during this time. That’s why I want to thank God for the 75+ people that actually came and met with an AOR conciliator during the conference last week. Your investment in helping us understand your experience is really important to us.


Many others were invited to interviews by AOR just to share your many positive experiences in your Sovereign Grace Church. Thanks for adding your voice and providing us encouragement and perspective in this season.


But to both groups, may I make an additional request? Could you please pray that God would help us in this process? These next couple of months are going to be very important as AOR interprets what they are hearing into what we might learn. And we desperately want God to help them….and us! We want to be a ministry that better glorifies Jesus Christ through the proclamation of the gospel. We want to care for people even more effectively. We want to plant churches more strategically. We want to avoid the mistakes that we've made in the past. I think your prayers will help make a difference.
Here are some specific ways that you can pray for us:
  • Pray for the phone interviews which will now be conducted by AOR for those that could not make the conference. Pray people share information that would serve us in identifying areas where God has already blessed us as well as important areas where we need to change.
  • Pray that we may be reconciled to any people who are hurt.
  • Pray for the board, that God may help us understand the steps forward that will best serve SGM churches and the Mahaneys in this season.
Again, if you feel that you have something to say that Sovereign Grace Ministries needs to hear, please set up an interview with AOR (the deadline is November 30) so that we can truly address the problem. You can do so via an online form, or just by emailing them at mail@hisaor.org.

And by the way, thanks for your ongoing patience with us.

Tuesday, November 15, 2011

SGM-Mahaneygate: My Letter to Dr. Mark Dever

I wrote a handwritten note/letter to each involved in the cc: line that was substantially tougher than the hardcopy posted here. 
Donald Philip Veitch
125 Kemberly Court
Jacksonville, NC 28540
910-229-7914    reformationtoday@yahoo.com

November 10, 2011


Mark Dever, M.Div., Th.M., Ph.D.
Capitol Hill Baptist Church
525 A Street, N.E.
Washington, D.C. 20002

Dear Dr. Dever:

Please let me know if you plan to invite Charles J. Mahaney to speak at the conference entitled “Together for the Gospel” on April 10-12, 2012. Your website promises an appearance by Mr. Charles J. Mahaney. In order to attend, it would cost me at least $960.00 for registration, travel, hotel and related costs. This is costly for a retired veteran living on a fixed income.

C.J. Mahaney
However, Mr. Mahaney has been involved in highly problematic and highly disturbed dealings for the last few decades. This has been vetted and researched by me. His involvement raises substantive issues themselves. My decision to attend will be influenced by your decision concerning Mr. Mahaney. Further, it will affect further counsel to fellow Churchmen and Churchwomen regarding “Together for the Gospel.” Attend or boycott?

I would appreciate hearing from you within the next month so I can make plans. My contact information is above. Or, you may call my home (910-229-7914) any evening from 6-10 p.m. (EST).

If you have further information that may assist, I would like to have it. Thank you for the help.

Sincerely yours,


Donald Philip Veitch

cc:
The Rev. Dr. Allen C. Guelzo, Gettysburg College, Gettysburg, MD
The Rev. Dr. Al Mohler, Southern Theological Seminary, Lexington, KY
The Rev. Dr. Carl Trueman, Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, PA
The Rev. Dr. Darryl Hart, Hillsdale College, Hillsdale, MI
The Rev. Dr. Ligon Duncan, First Presbyterian Church, Jackson, MS
The Rev. Dr. R.C. Sproul, Sr., Ligonier Ministries, Lake Mary, FL
COL Robert Switzer, JAG, USMC (ret.), Jacksonville, NC

Saturday, July 16, 2011

Threats Against SGM-Whistleblowers and Their Families

We have strenuously recommended that these bloggers report these threats to local law enforcement agencies.  Cyber-stalking and the communication of threats may rise to the level of felonious behaviours.  While there may be theological disagreements, as we've been reporting, communication or hints of threats against Whistleblowers and their families raises this gig to a new level.  For this scribe, we'll be chatting on Tuesday with a (ret) Federal Judge at lunch and this will be discussed.  Further, we'll be investigating NC Criminal Statutes, Title 18, for potential violations.  We repeat to readers...if this is true, as per below, law enforcement authorities must be involved. 

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2495

To all Survivors and Lurkers -

As you regulars know, we (Kris and I) have had this blog as a labor of love for some time now. We have always been more than fair to everyone – from dissenters to supporters. We typically call a spade a spade. We allow for anonymity. We don’t ask questions.

Well, things have changed. It seems that there are some folks out there that have resorted to threatening behavior – to the point of making us fear for the safety of ourselves and of our children. I realize that the Internet can be a scary place…however, I can navigate it. I’m not concerned with these people looking for me…that’s fine, as I can take care of myself. However, my wife and my children are being threatened.

To those that choose to make these threats:

Think long and hard before you pursue what it is you are pursuing. I am not “hiding” behind a moniker – I am simply protecting my family. What strikes me as amazing is the fact that you all profess to be Christians – even pastors. I am truly amazed….and saddened. Instead of working to fix the issues that we have uncovered, you want to shut us up. That, my friends, speaks volumes. It tells us that we are doing the right thing by having this site.

For those out there that have interacted with us in the past – you know who you are. Drop me an email and I’ll fill you in.
-------------------------

Joe July 15th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
I’m really sorry this is happening to you.
There is a lot of money at stake. And livelihoods.If your leader is a man who would readily blackmail his closest associate, cover it up to all around him for a decade, and then buy his way into positions of religious influence with vast amounts of his own and his company’s cash, you are dealing with nasty people. That sets the tone of an entire organization.
If they didn’t call themselves a family of churches, we would call them mafia.

  • Andy July 15th, 2011 at 11:49 pm Send the ones threatening your wife and kids down my way in NC. I may be a Christian, but my father raised me to handle those kind of folks in a different manner. Sorry to hear you guys are being threatened by people who have no concern for any pain and hurt you have experienced over the years. As a former SGMer, I know first hand the elitist attitude and shunning that is portrayed once you leave and journey out into the wilderness. Praying for you guys.




  • Guy
    July 15th, 2011 at 11:50 pm Yeah Joe…it’s sad.




  • Lover of CLC July 15th, 2011 at 11:53 pm This is really sad. I will be praying for you.




  • Guy
    July 15th, 2011 at 11:55 pm Andy -
    Haha…we’re cut from the same cloth my brother….i haven’t had to call in any of my boys from the teams in a long time….




  • Guy
    July 15th, 2011 at 11:56 pm Thanks loverofclc….
    Pray for the morons making the threats as well ;)




  • paperbagprincess July 15th, 2011 at 11:58 pm What you are doing on this blog is saving so many people. It truly saved my family from continuing in this “mafia”, as Joe would say. Wish we could do more other than through comments on cyberspace. Will posting these people’s cyberspace names online with their comments assist in their showing of being wolves in sheep’s clothing? God Bless SGMSurvivor’s Blog for doing what you are doing . . . and continuing to do it! Thank you!




  • Kris
    July 16th, 2011 at 12:02 am Um, yeah. What Guy said.
    Things have gotten MUCH busier here over the past week or two. Mostly, our new contributors have been wonderful – even those of you who don’t like some of what’s been published here have been polite and respectful.
    But we have fielded some emails that have been downright disturbing. People go on rants about how they want to shut us down.
    People are also hung up on who Guy and I are. Somehow, they think “anonymous” observations and “anonymously” shared stories are less accurate.
    This is a bunch of hooey – it’s a red herring:
    A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to “win” an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of “reasoning” has the following form:
    Topic A is under discussion.
    Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
    Topic A is abandoned.
    This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.
    Over the years, Guy and I have chosen to post under just our first names and not discuss more of the specifics of who we are. We have a couple of good reasons for this.
    The first reason was – and still is – that we have a desire to protect the guys who were our SGM pastors. As I’ve said over and over again, we ourselves did NOT have a bad SGM experience. We thought our pastors were really nice guys (although we’ve since discovered that even they – the nicest guys you could ever imagine meeting – have apparently had their share of issues with controlling behavior). When the blog first started getting some traffic, Guy and I made a decision that our SGM pastors simply did not deserve any negative attention that might arise from their previous connection to us. We continue to stick with that decision.
    A second reason – and closely related to the fact that we did not have a bad SGM experience – is that (and please hear me) this site has never been about US. We have no SGM story. We have no personal grievance against anyone. There’s no one out who we think owes us an apology. We really have no horse in this race, no ax to grind. We happened to put some noncommittal thoughts about our SGM experience out there, people happened to read them…and then the stories started flooding in. We never sought this out. It just happened. Who we are had nothing to do with it.
    The third reason is, SGM does not seem to promote a healthy mindset in at least some of its very loyal members. Some really diehard defenders don’t seem to be thinking straight. They have exhibited a level of blind rage over the idea that SGM has detractors, and they seem to believe that ANYTHING – any behavior, no matter how wrong – is actually good, as long as it “preserves SGM’s good name” or some such. (For you longtime readers, it’s the same mentality that prompted a couple of doofuses to lie for months in order to spin “Roy’s Story.”)
    Honestly, it’s this behavior – this weird irrational blind misdirected rage at the idea that SGM actually isn’t perfect – that has lately made us think that we’d be crazy for “going public.” Who’s to say what nutjob would then show up at our front door, looking for more than just a cup of coffee?
    (And, uh – just for the record – “normal” churches don’t inspire this sort of loyalty.)
    Anyway, please feel free to continue the conversation from the previous post. Guy and I aren’t trying to insert ourselves into the SGM story in any way whatsoever. But if you swing by some day to see what’s happening and the site is gone, you’ll be able to piece together why we decided we’re done.




  • Dr.StupidHead July 16th, 2011 at 12:29 am Please post the full names and emails or web sites of the people who are threatening……




  • Kris
    July 16th, 2011 at 12:30 am From “Zenith” comes the following story that he wanted to share:
    PDI/SGM Senior Pastor and Songwriter Caves to Leaders in Early 1990’s
    I don’t know where you stand doctrinally, but why all the fuss? Brent and CJ and all the other SGM leaders and their underlings should not be upset about any of the things that are going on at this time since God foreordained it from all eternity. Right? Over and over again their own theology mocks them.
    My wife and I were part of a PDI/SGM church for over 10 years. I had been an assistant homegroup leader. When the radical change in doctrine occurred I strongly spoke out against it. At that time hardly anyone, if anyone, in our local congregation agreed with TULIP. But they eventually became heavily indoctrinated, (sort of the way the JW’s do), as had our pastor previous to that. At one point, before my pastor gave in, during the second of the two three-hour knock down face to face meetings, I asked him how long he had been a Christian. It was like 25 years. I asked him if during that time he read God’s Word regularly. The answer was yes. Then I asked him if he read it prayerfully during that time. Again the answer was yes. Then I asked him when he came to believe in TULIP. He knew at that point he was just busted and uncomfortably admitted that it had been about two years earlier when CJ started propagating and later pushing it on people. My pastor agreed to read any book of my choice which took an opposing view to Calvinism. I asked him to read Robert Shank’s “Elect in the Son”. He read it and about three weeks later came up to me before a church service he called me aside and very quietly and almost secretively told me that he completely agreed with Robert Shank’s position.
    Now he had to break the news to Brent or Dave Harvey or whoever was “Over” us at that time. They were panicked as he was one of their main songwriters. He had actually discussed pulling some of his songs that had a Calvinistic bent to them. He was asked to write a position paper and he asked me to help. I did, but it was very lengthy. So he wrote his own, which was very pointed and well written. He then submitted it to the PDI leadership. Also during that time he had even seriously talked with me about leaving PDI, and we discussed whether or not he should turn the church building over to them. After submitting his paper he was asked to “dialogue” with them on the subject. When I asked him how the supposed dialogue was going he said that they gave him several books to read and discuss, like Anthony Hoekema’s “Saved by Grace”. Then CJ even invited him to speak at CLC, which of course was PDI’s mothership. I very much doubt if he would have ever smelled CLC’s pulpit had they not been going all out to dissuade him from what he actually believed. It was either conform, conform, conform, or out, out, out.
    Towards the end of our time at that church I continued to address many of the following things listed below, but our pastor refused to hear. I had been saying and have continued to say that:
    - PDI/SGM leaders and local pastors are elitists who think they have a corner on the truth; they are very proud and arrogant; they view themselves as the enlightened ones, while viewing all other Christians and their church affiliations as the unenlightened; in other words, those who do not agree with their theology are looked down on as second-class Christians and denominations; they are manipulative and controlling; for most of the time they act like a bunch of clones; and that they are absolutely obsessed with TULIP.
    Over the years there has been lots of hypocrisy and a clear double standard regarding how they treat certain people and the way they treat certain other people. I’ve always likened SGM to the Holy Roman Catholic Church. At the very top you have the infallible Pope CJ. Then the cardinals, arch-bishops, bishops, priests, etc.
    In his 7/10/11 Sunday evening message at CLC it was refreshing to hear Josh Harris finally admit to several of the same things. In Brent’s “documents” I found the part about CJ blackmailing Larry, Doris, and Justin sickening and reprehensible. Isn’t it interesting how even though CJ is supposedly so close and in tune with God, it took him some 13 years to acknowledge his sins of pride, hypocrisy, manipulation and mistreatment of others; and now finally he has gotten around to making things right with Larry. It so obvious, as is evidenced in Brent’s documents what an idol Reformed theology is within SGM. Case in point, within these documents, CJ stated that it would have been OK and that he wouldn’t blackmail the Tomczak family, if Larry left the movement, but did not say that it was over “doctrinal” differences. It has become clear that CJ is not the most humble person on the face of the earth. As a movement they need to realize their facade of humility is nothing more than false humility, which of course is just another form of pride. It is apparent that CJ has always craved adulation and the leaders of PDI/SGM have always fallen over each other when introducing each other. And if they happen to be introducing one of their gods like RC Sproul it is downright scary.
    As a post script I want to state that before CJ changed in the early 1990’s, he was my very most favorite Christian teacher. In my cassette/CD library I have by far more of CJ’s messages than anyone else. Unfortunately, his desire for prestige, power, and recognition made him the lesser man that he is today.




  • Canary July 16th, 2011 at 12:31 am Kris and Guy,
    What a frightening experience. Hate mail is one thing but open threats? Bad form, very bad form. You know, the devil gets really mad when something good is about to go down, when he knows he is loosing a battle. I’ve seen it. That kind of rage is a sign that a break through is on the way. Standing with you!




  • Kris
    July 16th, 2011 at 12:31 am We aren’t going to post names and emails. The right people know who they are.




  • Kris
    July 16th, 2011 at 12:32 am Canary, thanks.




  • Kris
    July 16th, 2011 at 12:38 am It’s really interesting, though, in the abstract, if you think about what is fueling people’s misdirected anger. I mean, think about it. People discover, some for the first time, that their church organization has real problems. There are actual emails from the organization’s founder that demonstrate the sick control and the weaseling so many people here have described. It’s pretty undeniable.
    So what do some of these folks do, when they are faced with the fact that their church organization is messed up?
    Well, apparently, they get mad at the people who already knew that their organization is messed up – the people who have been talking about it for awhile.
    This makes no sense.
    And for those of you who are wondering, this response is just not normal. It is not normal to become irrational when faced with unpleasant facts about your church organization.




  • Dr.StupidHead July 16th, 2011 at 12:44 am Kris your correct that some christains have woken up to a different world. Everything they know has been shattered. Some will react poorly :cry:
    I do forget to quickly the troubled times I had when I first left SGM 8O