Amazing, as surfing the SGM Refuge, Survivors, and FB accounts. The defenses and arguments in behalf of anti-intellectualism, non-Confessionalism, not-liturgicality, and half-whits from a 9-month Pastors College only strengthens and confirms our preliminary suspicions--and then, confirmed suspicions--of gross, deep, historic, deep-rooted and governing anti-intellectualism. Americans, no surprise. It's deep but it's there. It takes awhile to dig it up, but it's there. They don't like being called on it, but it's there. Sectarians. We recommend Charles Chauncy's "Seasonable States..." at www.books.google.com. Same m.o. for Whitefield, the Anglican interloper and busy-body. Only "Ceejie" boy, a high school grad, could pull it off with others like him, the ill-read. I took hits in my defense for an educated ministry. I was chided and repressed. See down around #320 below and the incompetent responses. SGM Survivors likes to hurl and host rebuffs, but--push come to shove-- can't handle hard-nosed rebuffs. We want facts, period. Nonetheless, given the dreary record below, SGM still is a bizarre outfit (more to follow). "Be ignorant like me" is drearily thematic. SGMers get what they desire and deserve too. Another report on enthusiasm at: http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=7768158695430580276&postID=1341697613412547923. We will have a 30-page report shortly on this arrogant outfit. A dreary and yawning record ensues.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3156&cp=all#comments
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=3156&cp=all#comments
November 20th, 2011 at 8:24 am QE2,
Whenever the discussion veers onto the topic of SGM and higher education, I will almost always field at least one email from someone who talks about how SGM actually does NOT discourage higher education…how lots of SGM girls end up going to college…and how, unlike CJ and Josh Harris, most of the guys attending the PC now actually DO have 4-year college degrees…and that going to college first is the preferred course of action for a potential PC candidate.
Someone even wrote me awhile back to assert that there has never been anyone at the Pastors College whose previous education had consisted only of homeschooling. I don’t know the accuracy of that statement – I thought someone here had mentioned at least a couple SGM pastors’ sons who had been homeschooled and then attended the PC without going to college beforehand. But maybe that’s inaccurate.
At any rate, while it’s still theoretically possible for a guy to head off to the PC without first obtaining a college degree, it would sound like most of the time, that doesn’t happen.
However, if we’re talking about attending seminary, that’s another story. I’m pretty sure the majority of PC candidates do NOT have seminary degrees before attending the Pastors College and becoming SGM pastors. Some do. But I don’t think the majority do.
As best I can understand, the “no college for girls” thinking varied from church to church…and it seemed to depend upon what the senior pastor was doing, and how much the pastor idolized CJ and CJ’s choices for his own daughters. Some churches never even conveyed a clear preference one way or the other.
At many churches, though, people were subtly (and sometimes not-so-subtly) influenced to believe that girls did NOT need to attend college…and if they did, they would be wrong for moving away from home (and from their “local” SGM church) to do so…and it would be “wiser” for them to pursue traditionally feminine degrees.
When Josh Harris spoke at a CLC family meeting last spring and summarized the findings of the series of meetings he had held at his home, this issue was actually talked about openly for the first time. The transcript of that speech is no longer available on CLC’s website, but I seem to recall that when discussing the topic of college for women, it was phrased up as something to the effect of, “Some members have shared with us that they felt pressure not to send their girls to school (or not to let their young adults go away to college). That was never our intention, and we regret that they felt that way.”
(If someone has access to that transcript, I would love to post the piece that talked about higher education.)
Anyway…
My point here is that it’s not accurate to say that SGM is anti-college across the board, and it’s not accurate to say that most SGM pastors are “uneducated” (save for whatever they can absorb during the 9-month Pastors College course). I think it’s accurate to say that it is theoretically possible for a guy to be homeschooled only and then attend the PC and become an SGM pastor (if his dad were an SGM pastor). And I think it’s accurate to say that there has been a strong bias against young people leaving home to attend college. I also think that in some SGM churches there existed a very strong bias toward stay-at-home daughters (modeled after CJ’s own daughters’ choices).
November 20th, 2011 at 8:29 am Thanks QE2…I appreciate the insight into this author. I do remember him being a little poo-pooed by SGM and associates, now that you mention it.
I guess I feel I am in a quandary of feeling as though, for years, I’ve been reading books telling me what to think and feel about God, Jesus, the Bible, doctrine, and Christian living.
For awhile, I need to take a break. I want to wrestle with my Bible and a concordance for awhile, apart from reading other authors.
It’s just something I need to do right now.
Maybe at a later time, I’ll be ready.
November 20th, 2011 at 8:36 am Square Peg: My heart breaks for you because I remember being at the same place you are now. Heartbreaking. I am so sorry. If you can push yourself to try the book I promise you will not be disappointed. And QE2 – I think this is his best book yet. I am glad Square Peg that you are still able to read the bible. Lately, I have been seriously encouraged by studying Justification. SGM leaves you feeling like Qe2 said like a sinful worm…but the moment we accepted Christ – God declared us righteous – that is permanent – and no one can take one dot of that away from us. The church is flawed…but Jesus is still beautiful and an incredible warrior that fights for His own. I will be praying for you today.
November 20th, 2011 at 8:55 am I have been uberbusy and am trying to catch up with the discussion boards between studying for an exam and writing a paper (among other things, I presented a poster and became a grandmom for the first time last week <3 <3 <3)
However, I can't help but notice how women are condescended by comments like "women are important" and the statement goes on to tell us what we aren't permitted to do. So, what are we permitted to do?
Gaze adoringly at our husbands?
Cook?
Clean?
Shag?
Breed?
I belong to a private discussion board filled with women that have made their way out of the SGM nightmare and we are all starting to reclaim our authentic selves and it is a beautiful thing to share space with these beautiful gifted women start to walk in the talents that God has given them.
Some of us are going to school.
Thriving and making a difference in this world.
Please, dear sisters, don't let others define or restrict you.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:07 am QE2 and Kris:
My daughter was told by the idiot young men in that “wonderful” parent-lead youth group that no one would ever marry her because she was pursuing other interests rather than being at home learning how to be a wife and mother. That was just a few months ago. Where do you think these idiots got this lame-brained idea?
When stuff like this came up, the pastor told us that it was because she was being persecuted for the sake of the Gospel.
Excuse me? Persecuted for the sake of the Gospel from WITHIN THE CHURCH because of the direction she felt God was leading her in her life?
And, yes, he’s a PC grad.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:25 am Square Peg, THAT is exactly how I became to be a Believer-by reading the Bible! There is no reason why God cannot speak to you; as a matter of fact, I personally think that His preferred way of speaking, is to each of us directly! I have honestly found in my life that when I listened to “that still small voice within”, things worked well for me, but when I did not listen, and rather let others change my mind, or ‘rationalized’ away what I was hearing, I was dead wrong. I am not saying that we should not listen to advice from others, but everything anyone shares with us, via written or spoken word, we need to discern before God for ourselves. It doesn’t necessarily make the other person ‘wrong’ all the time, they just might not be ‘right’ for your life specifically, because they do not know you like God does!Others serve as our ‘checks and balances’, to keep us from going way off the deep end, so to speak, but God wants to have a relationship with each of us as individuals, not ‘through someone else’. If your travels and searching bring you to a point of seeking directly from God Himself, then that is a good thing!
November 20th, 2011 at 9:27 am I think it may be one of those areas that is not expressly taught bluntly from the pulpit. But somehow, the message comes across loud and clear.
(Isn’t this the same problem we have when trying to show AoR how twisted things are? If you haven’t experienced the culture, you would think we were imagining it. So much is unspoken)
I have been a member of SG churches for over 20 years, so my perspective might be different from someone who has attended one of the smaller churches for a relatively short time. Here’s a few real examples that I have personally experienced:
Many of the young ladies in one church became nannies, to better prepare for wifehood and motherhood. And tried to persuade the college attending gals that they needed to do this too.
In one church, the single ladies were encouraged to move in with families, providing them with built in date night babysitters.
They followed the Girltalk blog with the “our way is the only Biblical way of being a godly woman”-and even had the Mahaney girls, whom they have never met, as their screensaver. So even if your local pastor never commented on women and education, the noxious SG thought patterns subtly spread anyway.
I have heard parents say that they will be sure that their boys get a name brand college education because they will be husbands and providers, but that’s not neccesary for their daughters. I have even heard a mom say she would not homeschool her son, because he needed a real education, unlike a girl, where it does not matter if you homeschool. There were the moms that felt like homeschool was not about academics, but you were successful if your child attained Godly character, even if they couldn’t add. College was not an option here, because the kids were not ABLE to do college level work.
I have heard from the pulpit that if our girls wanted a career, it should be in a “helping” career, because women were biblically to be helpers. No dreams of becoming the CEO, but you could help him as the secretary.
Also from the pulpit-once your children were grown, your biblical function was to be a Titus 2 woman, and help the next generation raise their children. That was pretty discouraging for me. I remember thinking-so I live my whole life doing what I should, but never get to do what I really want? If you did do what you wanted-go back to school, have a career, fly to Africa to be a missionary-you were being selfish, because the young mothers needed you.
There was the trend for the girls to finish homeschool high school and then take a year for on-the-job training, where they took over all of the mom’s responsibilities-cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, homeschooling the younger sibs, so she would know how to run a household.
Or the time I was “being persuaded” that my daughter should not be going to college away from home, because wan’t our goal to have her be a Godly home-maker? Or the pastor, who could not contain his surprise when my daughter mentioned hoping to be married one day-he thought that because she had chosen grad school that she had no intention of ever marrying.
Or when we moved to another SG church, and a family we were getting to know was so happy that we did not condemn them for sending their daughter to public high school, with the goal of going away to college, without trying to talk them out of this unGodly idea like everyone else. (Their daughter was very intelligent)
I will say that the state I currently live in is fantastic-the state pays for high schoolers to attend the community colleges free (You pay for books and some restrictions apply) so at least in my current church-probably all the churches in this state, the girl education thing is not an issue here, but there are still the unspoken undercurrents about not leaving home, and few go away to college.
My main thought in my other post, though, was that it’s not just the girls who get backed into a corner by doing educational things the unofficial SG way.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:28 am DB,
November 20th, 2011 at 9:38 am DB,
Congratulations on the Grandbaby!! Wonderful news!!
QE2,
I remember when Eldredge’s books were clearly discouraged by leadership. His “Wild at Heart” was very eye-opening and helpful in seeing what was wrong in the leadership at SGM. It’s a shame they can’t weed out the good in anything outside their own myopic world.
SGM’s alternative to that subject is something called “Man-school” no joke. As Wallace says, “as if you can teach a kid to be a man in a classroom.”
November 20th, 2011 at 9:48 am Unassimilated,
Thank you so much for taking the time to contemplate and write on this blog. Last night I took some time to reread many of your posts. They were an encouragement to my soul and brought into focus many of the nuances of SGM that can be difficult to understand. This might sound exagerated but I pray you will consider writng a book with a view toward helping those who have been exposed to SGM understand its doctrine and practice,…. and foster healing to those who are reeling from such an experience. God bless you on this Lord’s day.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:05 am Many people have noted that a belief in the existence of a priestly class, to which laypeople should submit, seems more aligned with Roman Catholicism than Protestantism. Some have tied SGM’s promotion of this view of pastors to the Catholic upbringing of a couple prominent PDI/SGM leaders.
I’m not sure it’s that simple but those folks have a point given how difficult it is to align the content of C.J. Maheny’s “The Happiest Place on Earth” speech with Reformed doctrines of any kind.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:43 am Hi Kris,
I just emailed this to you as well, but here is the link to Josh’s family meeting message from the spring:
http://www.covlife.org/static/meeting_notes
November 20th, 2011 at 12:11 pm I think all, but one of the pastors at covfel have a college degree. At when I say college degree they fall in areas of art, business, markerting and engineering.
November 20th, 2011 at 12:14 pm Those interested in how Girltalk figures into SGM’s concept of Biblical womanhood have got to take a look at the recent Girl Talk post.
http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog
Giving out free screen savers doesn’t seem to be cutting it these days. :-)
November 20th, 2011 at 12:28 pm At this new church I have been visiting. they had a missionary married couple come and talk about what they were doing. They both had their doctorate degrees. When the husband was finished speaking, the wife spoke and said she was a pediatrician, and her husband says, “she is the real doctor, I’m just a reverend”.
November 20th, 2011 at 1:38 pm Ironically, some pastors at CLC who once shared they did not plan to send their daughter’s to college, ended up sending their daughters away to college and not their sons because their daughters ended up being more academic. One pastor has a daughter with an advanced degree in a ‘typically male’ discipline and there are a handful of other women with PHDs. But, generally speaking, that is not the emphasis nor the example given. The CLC women’s ministry definitely encourages motherhood and home-making skills and I hardly think that will change.
November 20th, 2011 at 2:15 pm I took a look at that girltalk link, 298.
Its almost like another planet when I think of many Christian people I know personally and what they and their kids are going through. People with kids who started out on the streets of Russia or the wretched state orphanages of Eastern Europe and have PTSD. Kids in counseling or temporarily put in institutions. Kids that are so hurt and so messed up.
We have people with kids who are bringing their unsaved friends from public school or the neighborhood to Youth group. Kids from broken homes, cutters slashing up their bodies, raped girls (and boys), suicidal kids, a girl on prozac at age 14 for depression whose Mom is on the third husband. Gender identity crisis kids. Kids wanting to kill their parents. Threats to run away.
The world is a freaking stinking mess. Kids need real answers, a real God, a real way to deal with the depths of unimaginable pain and wounds, and struggles with resulting anger, rebellion, depression. Parents can’t bandaid this, they need real help, deep powerful preaching, people need to meet with God.
Girltalk? Maybe it works for the nice nondysfunctional families with a nice little bubble to live in. I can’t picture it working at my church youth group and what we are reaching out to.
Man in the stead of God? You have to be kidding. No man can fix this young generation of anguished children. They need a deep encounter with the living Lord Jesus. They need the Holy Spirit.
But what do I know. I don’t take pictures of my house and my counters have a blender, toaster, coffee grinder, sugar, honey, breadbox, crock of utensils, and a butter dish. That’s on a good day when hub does not leave the peanut butter out. So maybe I don’t know anything.
I’d like to see every A team guy and SGM pastor take in some foster care kids who were abused and neglected, maybe raped and tortured. Let them deal with it for a few years and see how their legalistic gospel and rules works with it. They will discover a need for God like they have never known it before. The arrogance will break. The pride will be smashed. The easy answers will stop. The little bubble will stop. They will be begging the Holy Spirit to move and stripped of all their shepherding crap. The real gospel works for real problems, and SGM is not preaching the real gospel.
November 20th, 2011 at 2:49 pm So well written, 5years, thank you. Very convicting and I needed the reminder that what I don’t need are more cute photos on my walls.
Kids don’t need more things or fashionable decor. They need safe adults who are willing to love them and show them what a relationship with Jesus looks like.
You sound like a very loving advocate for the lost kids of today. May God help me speak up for them as fervently as you do.
November 20th, 2011 at 3:04 pm 5yrs.@301
I’d like to see every A team guy and SGM pastor take in some foster care kids who were abused and neglected, maybe raped and tortured. Let them deal with it for a few years and see how their legalistic gospel and rules works with it. They will discover a need for God like they have never known it before. The arrogance will break. The pride will be smashed. The easy answers will stop. The little bubble will stop. They will be begging the Holy Spirit to move and stripped of all their shepherding crap. The real gospel works for real problems, and SGM is not preaching the real gospel.
OMG, 5 years, this is so true!!
Within the circle of my kids’ teen and YA friends (from church and non-church):
an orphan with no one but a drug-addict older brother to “care”? for him
gay/bi-sexual or just sexually-confused kids
alcoholics or drug-involved/deceived
ADHD/Tourette’s Syndrome and other Learning Disabilities
Child Sexual Abuse victims
Atheists/Agnostics
You are so right, when faced with loving real people with critical needs, it puts you on your face before God without easy, legalistic formulas!
November 20th, 2011 at 4:33 pm “Friendly Observer” said:
To the so-called “average” SGM pastor –
When I read JAASGMP’s first post, I gotta admit I was torn. I appreciated that he took the risk of coming here and posting, and I understood perhaps a bit of his frustration with not wanting to be lumped together with CJ and some of the other more silly-looking SGM leaders. I could get why he might be tired of having SGM’s widespread organizational weaknesses discussed, and then have the discussion reflect poorly upon himself and his own church, when he probably feels like he isn’t contributing to any of the problems.
You wrote — among your other thousands of words –
“But I must admit I’m a little tired of it all and just want to get back to serving and caring for the church that I dearly love.”
Okay, what’s stopping you? Did someone “higher up” in your food chain coerce you to come here and sound off? Why would you think anyone here cares whether you are “tired of it all” or not? Don’t you think some of the “survivors” are tired of it all too? Get in line. Take a number. Some have been “tired of it all” lots longer than you have been around (that is, if you are “average”).
What is the moth-like attraction to the bright light of “Survivors”? Do you not have control of your mouse and your “Favorites” choices? Why not hang out somewhere else? Sorry, but I have an extremely low tolerance for people to come here (though it is open to all, apparently) and who start bringing correction. To that extent, maybe you are an “average” SGM-related guy. How about a bit of humility? How about coming in softly and quietly and as a learner, not an alleged, self-appointed “teacher.”
But another part of me felt nagged by something I couldn’t quite pinpoint, and I realized after reading “Friendly Observer’s” remarks what it was. As “Friendly Observer” noted, JAASGMP said,
But I must admit I’m a little tired of it all and just want to get back to serving and caring for the church that I dearly love.
As I read “Friendly Observer’s” comment, it suddenly hit me. JAASGMP is frustrated because he is sick of having SGM’s problems discussed and analyzed. Instead, he wants to “get back to serving and caring for the church that I dearly love.”
I wonder if it ever occurred to JAASGMP that if he is thinking biblically, those of us commenting here would be part of the “church.” If JAASGMP is having the mind of Christ, I would think that his heart would be broken by the stories of people who had endured spiritual abuse at the hands of his SGM cohorts. And if his desire to “serve and care for the church is legit (and not just an illusion, the bizarre twist that SGM puts on “serving,” where people are trained to serve their SGM churches), that would involve having a caring and loving heart toward those who have been hurt by SGM.
And, as others have pointed out, one of the first signs that a person cares is if the person takes time to listen and takes time to understand where another is coming from.
JAASGMP, I don’t know if you’re still reading here or not. But in case you are, I would challenge you to think about what it is you meant when you talked about “serving the church you love.” Are you serving SGM – an organizational entity, a very particular, manmade way of “doing church”?
Or are you serving people? Are you serving souls?
Your words, about being “tired” of the discussion and analysis of SGM’s problems, because the discussion is somehow getting in the way of your “serving,” would seem to indicate that you are serving an organizational entity, the manmade SGM way of “doing church.” Those words made you sound like you would like to flick off SGM’s wounded like so many irritating gnats, so that you could get back to focusing on what’s REALLY important – serving SGM.
And despite how much I do appreciate your open-mindedness and daring in commenting here, that “Shut up so I can finally get back to what’s important to me – serving SGM” line rubbed me the wrong way.
November 20th, 2011 at 4:39 pm While I was posting the above, the following was emailed to me, with a request that I post it. Kind of a funny coincidence…
Greetings brothers and sisters…. I saw the post(s) from “JustanAveragesgmPastor” and was prompted in my spirit to respond. It is in Christ’s love and in continued sadness that I do so. I was a member of an SGM church for over 20 years. As I read what this pastor had to say, many times the words glared at me and sent chills through my soul. I’ve heard it all before. His post sums up some of the issues that make me “very sad”. The independent words and phrases say one thing, and “sound good”, but leave a different impression when seen as a part of the whole post. Sadly, after reading it, I honestly questioned in my spirit if the post was “rightly motivated” (these words were used by the pastor in his post along with “when I am hurt too.”) Much of the post sounded prideful, self-focused, self-defensive, self-serving and manipulative – I wish that were not what I gleaned, but it was. Many of the statements clearly go without saying, “Because one person or many people sin….does not mean ALL people ….do likewise.” O.K., I think we all know that. After he states his case, he then makes the following statement, “I’d be glad to answer your questions if I remember to come back to this site.” That is a perfect example of certain words being used, that do not ring true and may not be totally honest to oneself or others – I believe and sense in my spirit that he had every intention of coming back to the site and waited eagerly to see the feedback generated by his post. I know that may sound judgmental, but that is honestly what I sensed – and strongly. He felt the need to explain later how he could respond to the first comment regarding his post within less than an hour. “I was checking back in to see if my comment was posted and so i’ll reply as well.” Why would he feel the need to say that? All that was said had the feel of being carefully crafted while being sure to get his opinions/thoughts across – ones he maybe has been wanting to relay, but has not done so until now – why now? Perhaps because he is “a little tired of it all”? That is an honest question although I know it sounds sarcastic. I could not shake what I was sensing as I read the post and I have prayed about it.
Dear, dear “pastor”, please examine your motives, my friend. Do you honestly want to mediate/help or did you simply want to get your thoughts across on the blog, unload/relieve yourself? I truly think you should ask yourself and God this question. If it is the latter, do you “feel” better now? I pray not – and I pray the Holy Spirit will show you your true motive(s). I will take the liberty here of making a statement that we all know: we can do the right thing with the wrong motive and the wrong thing with the right motive. Posting here may seem to be the right thing, but was it done with the right motive? May the Lord help you, friend. From what I am sensing – and I could be wrong – you have shown all here that you still don’t get it and you won’t until you humble yourself and truly “see” with new eyes all that has been and is still WRONG even in your own post. “And I try to confess and grieve over the sins I’m aware of.” Don’t try, friend, ask the Lord to open your eyes and show you your sin (if you are unaware) and then confess, grieve and take whatever corrective action the Holy Spirit leads you to take. Pray, pray – pray long and hard – He will show you – I pray.
November 20th, 2011 at 5:43 pm It was announced today that Terry Virgo will be speaking at CLC on Dec 11.
Terry Virgo hasn’t spoken at CLC for 10+ years. Does anyone have any insight on that? Was there a disagreement between SGM and New Frontiers? Maybe there wasn’t but I’ve always been curious about this since I enjoyed his teaching a lot when he used to come.
Anyone?
November 20th, 2011 at 5:57 pm “I’d be glad to answer your questions if I remember to come back to this site.” I think that is an SGM leadership tactic. I remember hearing that from my CGL’s when I confronted them for not following Matt 18…I was told they have other things going on in their lives and other things to discuss besides me. I don’t quite get it…. it is a way of being dismissive and in control. I overlooked this and other things JAASGMP said and the poor me tone – because at least he was here…but alas…maybe he is just average
November 20th, 2011 at 6:15 pm Yeah Kris, the average PDI/SGM pastor… Blinders on, can’t spiritually find their but with a compass, running the race that CJ has set before them. Getting the giddy-up whip to go faster from CJ and so called A-Team, produce more and SINergistically become the “whatever” they are supposed to be and poop out their backside the collateral damage…as waste-matter.
Since it is Sunday, time for a quick sunday school story. It is called THE NEW CART AND THE DUE ORDER (II Samuel 6, I Chronicles 13-15).
There was a King who wanted to bring the Ark of God (whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts, that dwelleth between the cherubims, according to scripture, this GOD is the same yesterday, today and forever, Hebrews 13:8) back to the people. It was “all” about WORSHIP (“could it be?”). And, this King consulted with the people, instead of God, as to HOW to do this. A NEW CART was chosen (but not by God).
This New Cart was made-up of board members and wheels. Now, in order to be a board member, you must carry the load. And, in order to be a wheel, you must have a PROVEN gift of “SPIN.” And, for a time, attention was given to the New Cart.
So, the leaders used their gifting and appointed the New Cart to usher in God to the people for “worship.” However, in time, things did not go according to the leaders plans and the New Cart was de-gifted by God
. Apparently, God really did care HOW things were done and WHY
. This was called the DUE ORDER, from “His” WORD (John 1:1-14). God already gave instructions on HOW and WHY things were to be done. Problem was, people didn’t listen to God (John 10:1-30).
Well, the aforementioned was based on a true story.
In the New Testament, we have our Lord Jesus Christ as the HEAD of the church. He has already explained how worship is supposed to be done decently and in order. Problem is, people listen to board members and wheels and the result is…death and God’s anger.
“But God” (Eph 2) IS still working, and our Lord Jesus Christ IS still saving people in the midst of these “situations.” We are to trust Him in His Due Order, which He brought into being on the cross by dying for our sins and rising again from the dead, as the Head of the church, by His own POWER.
The Key of David to unlock God’s will, is to listen to His instructions and distance yourself from the new cart. In the end, our Heavenly Father does know best and the question still remains: “Whose your Daddy!”
The true End of the matter…
November 20th, 2011 at 6:28 pm Not through reading everything yet, but wanted to report that Cov Fel had a SGM mission video this a.m. I was not all about CJ, though he did have a small part in the video. Also, Dave Harvey spoke briefly in the video. It was well done and obviously care was taken NOT to glorify the (still?) on-leave president. There was also much talk about ‘the mission’ (same mission) activity in other countries. A missions offering was taken, of course.
November 20th, 2011 at 6:37 pm #’s 301, 302, 303 — Amen.
This is the real world where Christ is needed most.
November 20th, 2011 at 6:40 pm CLC, interestingly, did their own “mission” presentation. They celebrated the completion of a home that CLC built in Mexico at the Rancho 3M Children’s home (you can see the vid on the CLC website). CLC gave over $100K to build this and many teams went there to build this home over the last several years.
Josh highlighted that this was one of the items that the “Go Forward Fund” is able to do. He also highlighted that if you give to the Go Forward Fund that 100% goes to the designed categories (i.e. none of this gets tithed to SGM).
November 20th, 2011 at 6:44 pm My non-SGM church was good this morning. I prayed for Square Peg on the way to church and during the time of worship. Unlike average SGM pastor I like to be busy caring for all people – even those not in my own church. I find myself more and more just wanting to care for people – without an agenda to get them to church. I spent a half hour the other day with a woman I met in Barnes and Noble, helping her pick out a catholic bible, and while doing it got to share about how to read the bible, other resources, and about God. I think we are to be busy taking care of more than our own. We encounter people everyday. We should take time to care for them since we are all made in God’s very own image and are therefore very important to Him.
November 20th, 2011 at 6:54 pm Mary #311 — Thanks for your example. I’ll take that as a reminder to go and do likewise.
November 20th, 2011 at 7:26 pm The CLC Rancho Mission video is on their website. Good stuff. I could really get excited about participating in something like that. I do think that SGM has done some good stuff with their mission fund, but I would rather have fewer degrees of separation between me and the final recipients of the funds. Sending money to SGM just adds a layer of administration that is not always needed. I wish some of the larger SGM churches would do what CLC is doing and directly support some projects like this. My church had a missionary go out a while back, we prayed for them the Sunday before they left, but as far as I know, there was no offering for the person. A lot of us just wrote a check directly to the person. That kinda bugged me.
November 20th, 2011 at 7:45 pm There are justifiable penalties in football for a violation called “piling on” and I don’t intend to commit that foul with Mr. Average-SGM-pastor (or, as in Kris’ acronym, JAASGMP). In fact, to the moment (7:00 p.m. EST Sunday), he either hasn’t remembered to return, or — as a busy pastor — may simply not had opportunity on a Sunday. I hope he does return here (as one willing to consider his own conduct and perhaps his goals in having visited), since several of us have posted fair and legitimate questions by which he might better define himself as wanting to participate in a way that could prove helpful and redemptive.
By returning, he will prove whether he visited merely to preach his message or whether he is serious about honest dialog with the real-time, real-life people who contribute here — the literal survivors.
But I’m back anyway even without his response, because Kris’ #304 was a helpful clarification, and the person who wrote the email to Kris about JAASGMP in #305 tugged at my heart. There appeared in both so clearly a genuine and sincere exhortation toward truth that JAASGMP might be helped by if he has the courage and openness to further engage any who will respond to him. Not privately, by the way (that request was a ploy that no self-respecting survivor would fall for).
And there is a specific point I want to throw out that I think many of us here pick up on when someone ducks in the door to tell Kris and Guy what to do or not do and how all of us should behave (or not), etc. Kris wrote:
“And, as others have pointed out, one of the first signs that a person cares is if the person takes time to listen and takes time to understand where another is coming from.”
Bingo! I have gleaned a lot from the writings and seminars of Stephen Covey (author of “The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People”). No, it isn’t the Bible, but it covers truths that find a lot of foundation in the Bible. One of his principles is, “Seek first to understand, then to be understood.”
I think that’s one reson I get antsy about people that come to such a site as “Survivors” primarily (if not solely) to sound-off, not really to dialog, not to understand, not to learn. Shouldn’t there be at least a modicum of humility to think, “Hey, I better read for a while, so I can discover what this blog site is about and what these people are about”? I say yes, there should be some reticence, some self-control, some sense of dignity, some forbearance — yes, even a sense of caution, whereby one might ask himself, “Has anyone here ever really asked for my viewpoint? Why should these folks care what I think? Perhaps I should care more about what they think? Why is this site called ‘survivors’ anyway?” And so on.
What does the saying mean, “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread”? I do not want to call anyone any names, nor have I any right to judge, and I know enough about research and the scientific method of discovery to know that no one should state a hypothesis based on one or two samples of data. And yet I found myself reacting twice now to first-time posters who have jumped in with opinions rather than to come slowly, seeking to learn, seeking to understand, perhaps asking questions.
I am not in charge here in any sense of the word — I am one of the newer contributors, and I am truly a friendly observer and not a victim of hurts or a survivor. However — and Kris can modify this, as I am not to old to learn or to be corrected — but I’d like to say to SGM-related apologists who might come here to defend your leaders or your principles, please don’t imagine that anyone here needs to be exhorted as to your way of seeing things or your patterns of ministry or beliefs. We are learners, yes, but you have not earned the right to be one of our teachers. Stop telling us that yes, you are a sinner, but so is everyone else. We know that. Or that “all churches are flawed and imperfect” blah, blah, blah. We know that, too. Stop coming aboard with a spirit that wants to control the conversation.
Just come as a person — leave your guns (or your “honey-soaked words”) at the door. Read for a bit before you think that your stance, your knowledge, your comments are going to save us all from horrible ruin. Above all, stop feeling sorry for yourself or your denomination, or your leaders. If you had the grasp on all truth that some among you think you have, SGM would not be in the awful mess it is in. It is a time for humble dialog and for healing. That is what God is about. That is what the gospel is about. If you want to share the cup and the bread of communion and fellowship with us (symbolically), don’t come as a priest who is “above” us — please come as a brother.
November 20th, 2011 at 7:51 pm Sorry about the typos — fingers are old and often disobedient.
November 20th, 2011 at 7:52 pm OK I am WAYWAY late to the conversation sorry
justanaveragesgmpastor #184
There could be lots of questions and comments but just three from me…… the “please dont generalize” statement. If we the SGM survivors were to explain in detail everyone of our comments everytime we made it Kris’s blog would run out of space. We have all explained ourselves at one time of the other and if you had taken the time to read all the past blogs you would have learned that we are not generalizing but simply makeing statements about some very disturbing patterns. No one has yet given examples that these patterns are not the norm
“I don’t share my real name here because I don’t want to put up with the hassle that guys like Curtis and others have endured as a result.” You realize one of the reasons the blogs were named as evil was becuase we were all suppossedly anonymous right ? Many here use there own or most reconizable names. If you truely believe in something you should be willing to put your name of it. Are you that scared of SGM that you would not use your own name? Put your fears where they should be bro
OH and your “fatigue”maybe try serving the Lord instead of SGM. There is no fatigue when serving God
Just a whole lotta joy and peace
November 20th, 2011 at 7:54 pm Friendly Observer #316
NO WORRIES my fingers have always been to fat for this keyboard and my spell chequer is bustimicated
November 20th, 2011 at 8:10 pm MAK –
Your 311 is good news as the Go Forward fund originally was to help SGM in large part, who at the time was, ‘In the red.’ As you can imagine, it raised the question of where did the ‘provision’ go at the time.
It must of been strange to hear that none would go to SGM. Was this part received well?
Bob Dixon, thank you for the kind words, the thought has more than crossed my mind, and what you speak of has been in the works. With recent events though, revisions and new chapters are in order. There are still a few personal bridges to be rebuilt as well.
November 20th, 2011 at 8:30 pm Kris, I will not argue here the case for literate and educated clerics. It’s your forum. You’ve registered your point. You are very wrong. Most wrongly. I am very right. Most rightly. We will never agree, although I could most substantially and quite vigourously argue the case. Trust me, I could ably argue the case. I’m from a different tradition. Nuff said. The academic issue is dropped, but it is duly noted. The reading goes on. That said, regards to all.
November 20th, 2011 at 8:51 pm DPV@320 I haven’t caught up on all the comments, so don’t know what was said about the academic stuff…but to borrow from Tevye in “Fiddler on the Roof”:
Having educated clerics keeps crazy exegesis to a minimum…but on the other hand….
There are many sincere and godly, but uneducated men that God has used powerfully in ministry…but on the other hand…
We have such a wonderful, rich history of well-educated theological works to glean from…but on the other hand…
God can speak through even a donkey…BUT on the other hand…
(Gotta stop cause it sounds like Kris wants to minimize the controversy!!
November 20th, 2011 at 8:54 pm Leave it there, Muckraker. Leave it there. The head is spinning.Let everyone press onwards.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:06 pm DVP #320…??? I think you should argue your point so we can understand your point on scholarly catholic popes and the relevance that has to the SGM debacle.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:28 pm In response to MAK #306
Hi, I posted a few weeks ago that Terry Virgo’s blog indicated he will be at CLC for 4 days including preaching on Dec 11th. At our NewFrontiers leaders’ conference in early July he said he’d had a call for help and assitance from a “church in the DC area” so I wasn’t surprised to see his proposed visit on his blog a while later.
As I said on the earlier post CJ/Larry and Terry Virgo did a lot of exchange ministry trips in the 80s & 90s. Things tailed off in the mid-90s after CJ seemingly backed off on accepting the Holy Spirit move then. We saw something of CJ around the 2000-2002 period but nothing since. TV & NewFrontiers have always had a solid and consistently held Reformed/Charismatic stance and whilst they embraced the move of the HS in the 90s they always ensured the word was preached and didn’t allow the more crazy elements to manipulate and control meetings.
I am sure Terry’s wisdom will help Josh find a way forward at this time. I’d be interested to know if Terry is seeing anything of CJ since they’ve known each other for 30 years.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:29 pm Muckraker, post 321,DPV, don’t think for one minute that we dont appreciate you, cuz we do!
November 20th, 2011 at 9:32 pm ViewFromTheUK,I know the Internet is Universal, but I didn’t realize the SGM debacle was! It is good to hear what the view is like from the UK!
November 20th, 2011 at 9:33 pm Tomcov, will not argue the point. Kris has spoken and the dictum stands. It is her forum and that will be respected. I will leave it there. While disagreeing strenuously with her, it must be dropped. Tomcov, let’s just leave it there. Kris, Guy and Jim at Refuge are experienced and old hands. They need to be heard. They have experience in this battle. This scribe must defer to them.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:36 pm DPV,
Muckraker may state his/her opinion.
And I don’t care how well you think you argue. The fact is that if, when you send off your treatises to guys like Al Mohler, you spew snobbishly about CJ’s (and the other SGM leaders’) poor scholarship, your missives are going to end up in the circular file.
They know CJ didn’t go to college or seminary. They’ve always known that. When sharing the stage with those guys, CJ has actually made a big “Aw shucks” thing out of his lack of education.
They obviously think it’s cute or something.
Since highly educated seminary grads like Mohler and Duncan and Dever and MacArthur don’t look down upon CJ for not having a degree, how do you think a guy like YOU will come across to them if YOU are looking down on CJ for his non-scholarly ways?
They will think you’re nothing but a pompous windbag with grandiose ideas about your own intellect.
And they won’t listen to you.
All those hours you’ve spent doing your research and writing your letters will just be time a-wasted, if your audience shrugs you off as some snobbish old boob and tosses what you send them into the trash.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:45 pm Thanks,Kris, for your thoughts, but methinks we ought not litigate it here…unless you want.
I’m bowing out on the issue and yielding to you. If you wish to litigate it here, we can. I’m actually offering you a nice chance to skate off. I hope you’ll accept the offer.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:48 pm Kris, as usual, you make an excellent point! If one wants to affect another’s thinking, one must appeal to the person on what THAT PERSON thinks, regardless of what one feels! That is universally true! BTW, I know this is an SGM Survivors’s blog, and I dont want to open a ‘can of worms’, but I remember hearing of Terry Virgo ‘back in the day’, but me, with my ‘SGM history’, I am searching the Internet for anything amiss in New frontiers. I am not asking anyone to bring up ‘stuff’ necessarily, but I really cant find anything! Is this what the Bible means about “being a man above reproach”? It is times like this that I do question how much have I really healed, because I read about that ministry, and my heart melts, but I think, there has got to be something sinister behind it that I am not seeing. I trust God completely, but that is about it. Still trying to figure if that is wisdom or need for healing.
November 20th, 2011 at 9:50 pm Wow. I know God can use anyone but I like that my pastor has/is going to seminary. I like that he wants to keep growing and learning. I also think that if someone has all knowledge but has not love that they are nothing but a clanging symbol – so I am not so sure education would help CJ anyway. I do think DPV that when you say “You are very wrong. Most wrongly. I am very right. Most rightly.” that comes off a wee bit harshly. Mostly harshly
November 20th, 2011 at 9:54 pm I have to point out that Spanish Inquisition was full of “Educated Clerics.”
Have a 2 Star General in my family history that only went to a modest “Military academy.”
Jeff Purswell my have received his doctorate by now. Still shenanigans live on.
Besides, it’s not what you know, it’s what you do. History is full of ‘brilliant’ people that were prone to buffoonery.
Is not the great mystery of God that he tends to use the ‘least’ among us?
I would say, that if CJ had a more formal education, he would be more dangerous as education does not really change who you are, just what you know.
I have as many ‘degrees’ as I have fingers on my right hand, did not help me.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:01 pm DPV….my turn to step in…you’re being an ass right now, and being one to my wife. My advice to you is that you back up your horse and rethink your stance. I don’t care how flowery you can talk or how many medals you may have on your chest. You WILL respect my wife or I will toss you from this blog.
No reply necessary.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:04 pm DPV, if Kris doesn’t mind, I’d be more than happy to litigate the issue with you. I’ll gladly provide my credentials if you have concern that I might not be capable.
I am not aware of a single verse in the Bible that advocates formal education. In contrast, there are probably hundreds of scriptures, mostly in Proverbs, that encourage the pursuit of wisdom. And, even more telling, the only requirements for leadership that are outlined in the Bible are silent as to education and instead address character.
So, I have one question for you: on what Biblical basis do you claim that formal education is a prerequisite for leadership and that those leaders who lack formal education are “ignorant” and “illiterate”?
And, finally, “sophmoric” is not a word and you routinely misspell “egads”. I would have expected someone who is so keen on literacy to have figured those out without my help.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:05 pm Unassimilted #332 – Well said.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:06 pm Sorry, I thought respect was being shown. ?? Bowing out, as previously indicated. Without yielding my points in favour of anti-education. Life goes on. Get a grip, man, read.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:11 pm Gee, somebody must have not been very popular in high school.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:11 pm awkward moment
November 20th, 2011 at 10:17 pm Interesting that the name Terry Virgo is mentioned here. I know nothing about the man, though I’ve heard his name before, and heard he will be a Cov Life soon. The interesting thing (to me, anyway) is that at Cov Fel this morning, Mark Prater quoted Terry Virgo as part of his message. I’ve not heard him quoted before. As I mentioned earlier today, missions outside our country was brought up this am, and Terry Virgo was quoted in the message; does it look like Cov Fel is trying to imply that they are just as ‘open and moving forward’ as Cov Life is?
Hmmmm… following the ‘look-good’ mothership.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:25 pm Oswald, #339, how interesting. It sounds like CovFel is trying to steal CLC’s thunder, or at least co-opting what they are doing.
Gotta hurry and get in front of the pack if they want to claim to be leaders, I guess.
A “me, too!” move.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:28 pm No problem, DPV. If history shows anything, you’ll return in a few days with more comments on intellectualism. I’ll be glad to wait – just let me know when you’re ready to defend your position.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:30 pm Oswald, I do remember terry Virgo being talked about in the earlier days of CLC..I realize now how much I just lived my life, and only really heard what God wanted me to hear..I really never was submissive to men, only to God.(I am learning more of that now, and thanking God for that.) Anyway, my point is that I remember the name, but no more. I googled him, and searched through pages..Only one minor disagreement, really. I am still searching, and reading more of him, and the New Frontiers organization..so far, I am so hesitant to say, they seem good (it was really hard to type that word-seriously, very seriously..I just dont know) I like their whole concept so far as I have read. Lots of reading to do, though!
November 20th, 2011 at 10:33 pm Oswald @ 229
Terry Virgo was a guest speaker @ Celebration East in 1992. He spoke at Cov Fel back in the 90′s. I remember his wife speaking at a women’s ministry retreat when CovFel use to have them. Also in the 90′s, Terry Virgo’s New Frontiers use to have a Stoneleigh Bible Week somewhere in the UK. Some of CovFel pastors would go. They use to sell the music CD’s for that conference in the book store.
It is interesting that they are mentioning him again. It has been forever since I heard his name.
New Frontiers has a church in GA near Atlanta. I am not sure how many churches they have in the USA.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:34 pm Viewfromtheuk, thanks for posting. This is helpful. My guess is that Terry may not see much of CJ if he will be spending time at CLC. Maybe he will help both sides. We should pray for that. We at CLC will be grateful for Terry’s help and input.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:36 pm I suppose what will be most telling about Terry Virgo is what he says/thinks about SGM..It is one thing to come to CLC, who seems to be possibly drawing a line (albeit very, very weak IMO)with SGM, but what would he say about SGM? Does CJ know the Cov Fel pastor is quoting Terry Virgo??? maybe they are all thinking if they ‘ride the fence’ they can hold on just a little longer? I wont believe any of them as long as they are tied to SGM, or CJ, or John Loftness, or Gary Ricucci, at least until there has truly been fruit of repentance. Sure is interesxting for those of us who are ‘free to read and discern on our own”.
November 20th, 2011 at 10:44 pm I looked up New Frontiers website and they have one for just the US. The have quite a few churches in their “family of churches”. A lot located in Missouri and a good number in New England and a few other states. I wonder how their “family of churches” work? What is their polity? Viewfromtheuk can you provide any insight how your churches relate to the covering organization?
November 20th, 2011 at 10:44 pm Argus #340 — Looks like…
November 20th, 2011 at 11:07 pm I’m asking once again if the Average Pastor was instructed by a person in administrative/pastoral authority over him to comment on this blog; or if he informed anyone in that position he was doing so. Average pastor, this is a simple question. In light of SGM’s stance on the blogs, you MUST reveal your motives. To not do this is extremely disingenuous.
To my blog friends: This pastor indicated that he wanted to just get back to business. That attitude sums up my entire reason for leaving SGM. The suffering of the saints should be a priority; to SGM, it’s a distraction. Sorry, that speaks volumes about their heart
Finally, a word of spiritual caution to Average Pastor: If posting here was damage control, that is VERY deceptive, and the Lord sees your heart.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:07 pm Haven’t had time to read through all the comments except for the last few but I am compelled to make a couple of comments for what they are worth –
Concerning Terry Virgo — one of the best teachers on the planet. He is above reproach, he is humble, he is gentle, he represents the Lord and His church well. (and he is not perfect
Donald – we may have to have an offline discussion but I would like to make some distinctives with respect to the literary and educated clerics. If you are referring to academics you are dead wrong. Academic means “of no earthly good’ or ‘scholarly but lacking in common sense’. Our education institutions (Christian and otherwise) major on academics which means in my opinion they are turning out a bunch of ‘eggheads’ portraying themselves as ‘Bible experts’ or ‘the educated’.(which have proven to be dangerous to our health)
For me, it isn’t about academics as much as it is the understanding and command of truth with respects to our Lord and King Jesus and His kingdom. Our education systems are more about gaining knowledge, and teaching techniques with a smattering of bible exegesis without application. So much so that our preachers and teachers are more enamored with expressing what ‘they’ know rather than equipping the saints for the work of the ministry — in other words with our pastors today it is about ‘an man and his ministry’ not being a shepherd or servant of God’s people.
Unfortunately (and bred in the Bible colleges and universities) it is about knowledge without common sense and/or practical application (and little or no servant leadership)
This opens up organizations/ministries like SGM to come forward in a manner of authority not just offering application but demanding ‘their’ brand of application. There is no need for the Holy Spirit but only how ‘they’ interpret the scripture to the benefit of ‘their’ vision to those they call their own.
I am personally sick of the incredibly brilliant certified authorities/teachers of the scripture that for all practical purposes over the last 50 years have brought the church to a place of irrelevancy in our culture. It is about what they know not who they know and how we represent Him and His kingdom in the earth.
In all our knowledge and education, we have created a culture of devouring one another in our ‘rightness’ based not on the foundation of Jesus Christ but on the knowledge of men who claim to know all about Jesus Christ yet seemly lack the personal knowledge and character of Him.
We have allowed the ‘clerics’ to elevate themselves above the priesthood of believers. They have masked their own lusts for approval and acclamation claiming to be servants, and they have lost the simplicity of Christ.
Somebody needs help this boy (me) but I don’t see any clergy laity distinction in the New Testament but open for an intelligent discussion from a Biblical perspective otherwise.
If I am coming off as a bit irritable this evening, I am blaming it on the Redskins who have found another way to lose the Cowboys.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:16 pm DPV -
My only addition to 332 and 334, which can stand on their own, would be the consideration of our Lord Jesus Christ. God could have given him the life of an official teacher of the law in the Jewish culture but chose the life of a carpenter’s son instead for the God/man. Please think on this, considering if God indeed had a purpose in that choice and what that purpose might reveal to us. Also consider Jesus’ 12 disciples. They were quite a mixture of young pups. And then there is Paul. He had quite the transformation FROM his scholarly ways before he was able to preach the Gospel. God seems no respector of men and their degrees.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:22 pm New Frontiers Churches are much more independent than an SGM church. Virgo is not like CJ the pope with total control from the top.
That said (and it is probably good) I know of at least one NF church that has an authority freak abusive pastor. So you have to be careful.
Its like the PCA…..most of them are good but then you have the ones here and there who get into Federal Vision doctrine and think baptizing babies brings them into union with Christ, and works help save us. You really need to check out any church or pastor and not make assumptions based on a denomination or a leader.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:26 pm Terry Virgo has a more hands-off approach in leading his organization of churches than CJ. Terry believes it is unhealthy to have the organization depend on him too much. He is also more charismatic and more friendly and loving in approach to the flock. We have a friend who left SGM for New Frontiers and is eternally grateful for it. So, we feel that it is really good news that Josh is consulting with Terry about everything happening here and that Terry is willing to come over and help him in any way he can.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:27 pm So, basically I think we can all agree that DPV is what CJ would be like, if he had an education. Right?
November 20th, 2011 at 11:28 pm Oswald,
I do think covfel may “want” to show they are moving in the direction of covlife. I wont say who, but I know a source who said that people at covfel want to go more of a direction of covlife. I believe there are more people who want to go in the same direction as covlife, but are afraid to say so.
Come to think of it, I just think its really sad how things are going for sgm. At a church I was visiting today, the pastor talked about unity in the church and how so many people struggle in that area. I think he was talking about churches splitting up. I feel that is how things will go. If you ask me, I can see CJ will retire if things don’t go his way. He then may pass it on to Dave.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:31 pm I don’t think pastors need a seminary degree, though I do think it’s important.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:31 pm Kris and Guy, you cut one post out. I tried to stand down. Can I defend myself? Nat, Res, or others?
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:35 pm Sorta like Challies. Big Fear. I get it. Will continue reading, despite your grand fears of a substantive rebuttal. You can’t handle it. In a matter of courtesy, I did bow out. My honour is intact. The cowardice here is palpable however. Best regards and, surely, no ill will. Assuredly. Back to reading. Press onwards, it’s worthwhile.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:37 pm Nat W. Clark
Yup
I found a great article for DPV on the Psychological disorders indicated by excessive sarcasm. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/field-guide-sarcastic-masters.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:41 pm Nat @353 -
No. I can’t agree with that. If you knew (and maybe you do) a bit of what DPV has lived through, and with, during his lifetime, you would see how CJ probably wouldn’t be like DPV at all if he had more education. DPV just elevates education a bit beyond what it deserves and belittles those who don’t hold his view. None of which is necessary.
November 20th, 2011 at 11:42 pm A shout out and a thank you to Mary…for her prayers this morning. Thank you, that was very thoughtful of you. It has been an emotional day for me. I was much in need of prayer, so I am grateful.
Blessings,
Square Peg
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November 20th, 2011 at 11:48 pm Wimps, Guy and Kris. Guy, you ventured to call me an “ass” in public? Ahem, son. I didn’t respond. I tried t lay dumb arguments to the side. Read the record, lad. I’ll call you a first-rate “Bone-head” or “horse’s ass,” lad. U 2 allow idiots to impugn me without allowing rebuttals? Cowards. Both of u. U can’t handle intelligent rebuttals. I got it. Signing off, kiddoes. Cowards, the both of you. Does it matter? Nope. Will keep reading, as usual. But, got your numbers. BIG WIMPS. CAN’T ANSWER THE MAIL.
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November 21st, 2011 at 12:06 am Big Guy, you called me “an ass” in public? Huh? You really did, Son. Read the record, son. Read, son, read the record. What should I call you in public, a “donkey’s ass?” A “horse’s ass?” Guy, man up, son, man up. Fed up with your cowardice. Kris, I could have destroyed your arguments with substantive ease, but I didn’t. Infinite ease. Big ease. I begged off. Nuff said. Will keep reading, although I must confess offenses without the ability of defenses. You allow half-wits to impugn me without rebuttal? Guess so, sorta like Tim Challies. But, so be it. Got it. I’ll submit a report to Ted. I’ll also strenuously oppose any effort by SGM to come to my town of brave Marines. Trust me on the latter. SGM comes here and we’ll have a war, but what would you 2 know about death, combat, blood, limbs lost, men down, amputees or more. Let me register my contempt now. Aside from my just protests, press on. SGM is foul and odious.
November 21st, 2011 at 12:06 am I had the good fortune of being Terry Virgo’s driver/escort at a couple of the Celebrations back in the late 80′s. We would spend 3-4 days together going to and from all the meetings. He and his wife invited me to tea one time and we would have snacks together in between meetings. I was able to have long discussions with Terry and his wife, mostly about their family…. even had a word for their son which they seemed to appreciate very much. All that to say, my impression of Terry was that he is a very gentle, humble, and unassuming man. He reminded me of the verse, “In him is no guile”. He is perhaps the best example I know of someone who is very quiet and soft spoken and yet has a tremendously powerful annointing on his life as a teacher. I do not know what he has been up to these past 20 years. Hopefully, he has only grown to have a greater love and wisdom of God. I pray Jesus will give him eyes to see what the problems are in SGM and help CLC navigate their way through the obstacles ahead of them. I doubt he would remember me after so long a time but I think I’ll make a trip to CLC to hear him preach. May God give him wisdom and use him mightily during this important time.
"DPV is an educational narcissist."
ReplyDeleteInteresting insight.
You are right... the defense of an uneducated ministry is amazing over there! The point was made that many SGM pastors have 4 year degrees before they go to the PC. Um, methinks they miss the point!
ReplyDeleteYep, Seneca, strenuously abhor advocates of anti-intellectualism. Most establishment-traditions advocate for education. Imagine a 25-year old enthusiast, like Mahaney, thinking he had anything substantive to say. His books are dreary and puerile, unfooted and shallow.
ReplyDeleteSorta like CJ and those who adopt, embrace or enthuse over anti-intellectualism. As to you, also an interesting insight, about yourself.
No apologies here, now, or ever, re: the need for educated clerics.
Regards.
Says alot about you Seneca. We abhor ignoramuses here. You?
ReplyDelete