This is a set of interlocutations from those associated with Anglicanism in America. The date here is 10/2/2012. There's some light and some heat here. Many questions are raised that will be updated as we go.
Question. Let's suppose an Anglican
church/mission exists. What prayer book should they use? 1928? If so, why
shouldn't they use the 1892? Or, should they modify the 1662 and, if so, where
should the modifications be? I have more questions coming.
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Donald Philip Veitch But on the larger
question, for a non-Anglican, what reasons might be adduced to tell a
youngster, "This is a place to be"? Say, reasons used with young
college students without an Anglican background? That's a larger question while
we live in Anabaptacostalism. I routinely exclude the oxymorons, that is, the
Protestant liberals.
about an hour ago · Like
Charles L. Baker An important part of
"Apostolic Succession" is apostolic doctrine. Bishops, especially,
need to be thoroughly trained and examined before consecration. I am not sure
what choosing them "from within congregations," unless a different
polity is being suggested. Let the bishop be chosen at the diocesan gathering
or chosen by the Archbishop, confirmed by the House of Bishops, then given to
the diocese to vote on.
about an hour ago · Like
Charles L. Baker Strongly prefer the
1559, with minute changes to update language and punctuation.
Hudson Barton Jordan has done
considerable work on polity and governance in a hypothetical new organization.
I have a copy.
Donald Philip Veitch With re: to apostolic
doctrine, an apostolic and Biblical confession needs to be in place, the
benchmark by which wayward Bishops can be evaluated.
Charles L. Baker Three Forms of Unity or
the Book of Concord.
about an hour ago · Like
Hudson Barton The premise of wondering
how to attract youth might be inherently wrong. The only firm objective should
be to please the Lord.
about an hour ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch These are good questions
and we should keep the review underway. There are more questions in the queue.
3FU, can you imagine that in the back or front of a good BCP? Talk about
upsetting Anglicans? They wouldn't not what it is or was? Or, why they are
valuable.
about an hour ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Hudson, concur, youth
aren't the benchmark in terms of seeking them. Rather, what is inherently in
this or that mission work that warrants their attention. While retaining the
essentials, the question is why should they be involved or attend (again,
without dilution to attract them)?
about an hour ago · Like
Charles L. Baker Phil, the WCF would
upset just as many! Ditto for the Book of Concord, There are still AC's who
repudiate the Reformation.
about an hour ago · Like
Hudson Barton 3FU are fine but they a
not part of any English heritage, and they are unnecessary, particularly if the
WCF is included.
about an hour ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch ACs, "let goods and
kindred go, this mortal life also."
about an hour ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Let ACs go.
about an hour ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Wow, these are some
rather bizarre concepts, but then, are we to follow Duncan? Poor Bob, in the
last few years of ACNA leadership, has never mentioned justification by faith
alone....not once. Or, Mangling Leo? Or, Lacey Keith? Or syncretist Ray Sutton?
We have some interesting concepts here. As for a House of Bishops, a political
creation, perhaps. As such, it's not de divino, but, is adjustable.
about an hour ago · Like
Hudson Barton We have to also reject
the Laudians, or almost everything after the martyrdom of Cranmer. What they
meant for Evil, God meant for Good.
about an hour ago · Like
Hudson Barton Absolutely NOT (going to
ACNA). That would be completely inconsistent with these principles.
Donald Philip Veitch I'll have to take leave
on the questions for the present, but will return later. More thought is needed
here.
about an hour ago · Like
Charles L. Baker Where I attend, an
instructive liturgy will be used, and a series presenting the Reformed faith
has been started. You have to meet people where they are. Even many Reformed
know nothing of corporate, responsive prayer, nor the benefit of set forms.
Just the "pastor" making a pastoral prayer on the fly as if he is a
priest!
about an hour ago · Like
Philip M. Lewis Donald Philip Veitch - I've been using the
"Year Bible" reading program and the ESV along with MP & EP now
for 3-4 years. I find it works really well. I especially like being in th...See
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y“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following...
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about an hour ago · Like · Remove Preview
Hudson Barton There is nothing quite
so edifying as speaking to the Lord in a proper 2nd person singular, so
instructive as learning how to structure our thinking in a more classical (less
modern) fashion, or so humbling as learning to pronounce a person's name as he
would want. Desiring not to do these things is mere arrogance.
about an hour ago · Like
Charles L. Baker So much for
revivalist/puritan arrogance!!!
about an hour ago · Like
Philip M. Lewis Hudson Barton - it took me a long time to figure this
out. I will say language does change and English has lost the Germanic
"familiar." The problem became when the KJV and the classic BCP was
viewed as some specially God sent ecclesiastical language, that God cannot be
otherwise worshiped. The Roman church tried that with Latin. I would say I find
it "the best" and when I try to render it is something more
"modern" it feels flat. There is a "genius" in the
Reformers language we do not have the powers now to match - sort of like our
Constitution - It is very difficult to improve on so just "do it." So
I'm not picking an argument but believe we can be open to other options.
about an hour ago · Like
Jordan Lavender They should only used
authorized forms of service in their Province.
Hudson Barton Well Philip M. Lewis, if you insist upon
"modernizing" the language or even allowing a modern version, then
it's not just the lectionary you're talking about, but the entire BCP,
including the Articles. I am quite sure it cannot be done without making it
poorly or with a revisionist slant or both. Besides, it's pointless and writing
a new Reformed Prayer Book makes any kind of revival of BCP worship a thousand
times more complicated.
55 minutes ago · Like
Philip M. Lewis The problem is we are
coming from so many different "Provinces" and I would argue the
liturgical jihad of TEC needs active resistance now. If we believe "lex
orandi, lex credendi" ...See More
55 minutes ago · Like
Jordan Lavender I would tell people in
TEC, like myself, to use only the 1979 BCP instead of encouraging liturgical
anarchy that exists in ACNA.
53 minutes ago · Like
Hudson Barton If "repenting"
means going back to where we got off track, then go back to the martyrdom of
Cranmer, and for goodness sake set aside any and all notions of reforming
Anglicanism or depending on leaders from their ranks for assistance.
52 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Brothers, a break in the
reading but returning. I'd like to take these posts of our's, put them into a
MS document, and update at my blog. Here's why. There are good suggestions and
thoughts that need nurturance. In finishing Judges today, is it not clear that
"the Israelites" were an "up-and-down-crowd" with
deliverances variously through 12 Judges, if you want to count that wayward,
dissolute, and aberrant Samson as a Judge. Here's the point. We surely get
episodic periods in Anglican history. It's not a "tradition" to be
worshipped, but rather the "God" of our faith that is to be
worshipped. When "Mangling Leo" of the REC fell off the cliff, he
previously was rock-solid. But then, he replaced the "God" of the
Bible with "traditionalism," to wit, everything "Anglican, good,
bad, middling and mudling" was worshipped. We have a great heritage, but
it is full of wicked sinners, incc
Philip M. Lewis Hudson - I'm not arguing
against the "classic" BCP, but I believe the 39 AOR never assumes
there can be but one "form" perfected forever and unalterable. You
also assuming that change means "revision" when in reality bishops
with jurisdiction can and should make changes in a pastoral way. Regarding your
second post, it would seem to betray a despair that has lost all faith in God's
continuing presence in the Church, no matter how many problems. Maybe this
should be called "applying" Anglicanism. I think we are sufficiently
"Reformed."
44 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch The first thing to be
done is to get the scissors out and thoroughly drop, cut, remove and trash, if
not burn, the stupid and incompetent Catechism in the back of the 1979 BCP. It
is an embarrassment beyond words. "That" horrific and worthless piece
must be immediately excised.
Hudson Barton Mssrs. Lewis and
Lavender, if I recall correctly, you believe the "Reformed" church
includes Laud, Bramhall and similar "high church" Arminians or
persons like Parker who conceded an opening to their presence. No, it's not
realistic to be talking about introducing the WCF or 3FU and yet imagining that
any existing "Anglican" body would assist in the venture.
33 minutes ago · Like
Jordan Lavender Those aren't Anglican
documents and aren't binding on churchmen.
29 minutes ago · Like
Jordan Lavender Mind you, the 1662 BCP
was drafted by High Church Laudians...
29 minutes ago · Like
Hudson Barton Yes, but you want to
keep the '79 BCP, so that comment is just a head fake.
27 minutes ago · Like
Philip M. Lewis Jordan - your point in
the face of TEC's abominations and lawlessness are ludicrous, and I'm not
trying to pick a fight or put you down. You are going to have to get more
honest with the history and spirit behind 1979 and it's contribution to
"this present darkness" (and I actually like a great deal of 1979!).
Can you compare the "liturgical anarchy" of the ACNA with the
liturgical anarchy that lawlessly forced through WO but with a "conscience
clause" only to remove it in 1992 and said "get over it"? Do you
not think the lawlessness exemplified in the change in the disciplinary canons
are not designed to lawlessly silence any remnant orthodoxy? Now that the
"ecclesiastical authority" (which can no longer rightfully claim to
speak as either "ecclesia" or "authority") has designed to
"ordain" transexuals (the epitome of confusion and rebellion over
God's order in nature) and perform rights of SS "blessings", can you
regard at all any pronouncement that comes from the General Convention or 815??
This is the problem. They have formally caused schism and officially become
apostate. It is now official. It is a very different thing than when I was
ordained. The only thing left for the godly remnant is to leave en-mass
realizing they are church and must leave what has become Antichrist just like
confused Christians had to leave the buildings and preferment's under Arianism
after the majority of the Catholic bishops declared that no longer a viable
expression of Christianity.
27 minutes ago · Like
Jordan Lavender I think it is more
lawless to use an unauthorized book than to use the authorized liturgy of your
Province.
25 minutes ago · Like
Jordan Lavender Hudson Barton, I don't like the 1979 BCP but I am
against liturgical anarchy. If your bishop hasn't authorized a form of service
you have no right using it in the public worship of the church.
24 minutes ago · Like
Hudson Barton Yes, well it was more
lawless for the Jews to remain in Egypt.
24 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Wow, WCF and 3FU aren't
Anglican documents, therefore, they are not binding. So much for Reformation.
But, a great discussion to tease out ideas and thoughts. I'll stick with the
WCF as--essentially--right Biblical thinking.
Jordan Lavender No, they were written
during the Interregnum, when there was no Anglican C of E. I think Presbyterianism
is a better fit for you
23 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Jordan, who says
Presbyterianism is a better fit? I've been a regular BCP user by day and night
for 32 years. Because you think otherwise? Sorry, time for doctrinal
maturation, especially for the Bishops.
22 minutes ago · Like
Hudson Barton Suffice it to say that
Lavender thinks it better to remain "Anglican", and he will defend
his exclusive use of the label. This is why I insist upon abandoning the label.
Bickering with Lavender is a waste of time.
21 minutes ago · Like
Jordan Lavender The WCF doesn't contain
anything that is binding on churchmen, it hasn't been adopted by any Province,
contemporary or historical.
20 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch I love these rebukes.
They are of the essence of wisdom, that is, taking rebuffs and rebukes and
addressing them. One thinks of SCOTUS Justice Roberts in this respect. When
John Roberts was in DOJ and acting as Solicitor General, he was always assigned
with destroying the government's case, as a preparation for assertion of the
government's case before SCOTUS. He mastered objections to his own case and
answered them. He's brilliant.
20 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Jordan, that's an issue
that needs a response. Why hasn't any Province, contemporary or historical,
updated their skeletal AOR?
19 minutes ago · Like
Philip M. Lewis Hudson - NO! I merely
recognize they are part of our history for good or ill, just as Henry VIII was
and I believe he is most likely roasting in hell. Even though I think Jordan is
confused about 1979 and "ecclesial authority" he has a point about
WCF (though you'll have to tell me what 3FU represents other that something
short for something obscene.) We do have our own catechism and the BCP itself
is a sufficient guide (though I think there is a lot of commonality with the
WCF). Yes we are "reformed" but we always need to keep in mind that
"Reformed" is an adjective meant to modify "catholic" - and
it is that greater body that is known as "catholic" that we need to
find our place and use our "charism" to further "reform"
for the true church is "semper reformata."
17 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Gentlemen, retain your
gentlemaniless, as you've been doing, in the interests of scholarly thought.
Poor Jordan has taken leave of us to his loss. I think we should debate this
with good lawyerly thought and be able to sustain any good, scholarly, and deliberative
objection. Again, Justice Roberts, a man who played chess while other Justices
were playing checkers (a phrase from Forbes, Jan 2011), was a master of the
argument, knowing his own weaknessess and strengths of a given case.
12 minutes ago · Like
Hudson Barton 3FU stands for the 3
forms of unity; Belgic confession, Heidelburg catechism and the Canons of Dort.
They are fine but they're not English and they don't represent an improvement
over the 42 Articles, the 1595 Lambeth Articles and the Westminster Confession.
The latter two of these were designed to reverse the mistakes of having
replaced the 42 Articles with the 39. We just have to reinstate the mind of
Cranmer.
10 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Hudson, this axis of
inquiry--3FU, WCF, 39 and 42 AOR, 1595 LA--merits analysis. In the analysis,
applications to the wider Anglican history that adopted only the 39 AOR without
maturation.
8 minutes ago · Like
Hudson Barton Mr. Jordan is a Laudian
(Arminian) and astoundingly he refers to himself as "Reformed". He
seeks to preserve or remake the institution of visible Anglicanism (from
precise age between Cranmer and 1662) even at the expense of the invisible
church. I've been round and round with him on the matter, and am convinced it
won't change.
4 minutes ago · Like
Hudson Barton This will help your
inquiry into the changes between the 42 and the 39. https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/dgehring/web/hist361/fortytwoarticles.pdf
2 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Arminianism has no place
in Biblical Christendom, at all, and that should be said. Never mind American
Anglicanism, but Biblical Christendom. In fact, this should be one of the
issues that are confronted along with other issues.
about a minute ago · Like
OLDER POSTS
Farewell, I thought this was an Anglican
group... I will leave you to your delusions.
Donald Philip Veitch Delusions? That's your
rejoinder? Puerile, sophmoric, and like a lawyer who can't address the
objections, he quits the case. If you can't stand up to biblical, confessional
and scholarly objections, what can you offer thinkers, other than recourse to
"that's the way it's been done." With that logic, you should cease driving
your car and revert to horseback.
16 minutes ago · Like
Philip M. Lewis If you can't take the
heat, stay out of the kitchen... but while you may run, you cannot hide -
especially from the apostasy that is TEC. And I'm still a priest in TEC and
ordained at St. Peter's in Albany!
15 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Philip, you are quite
the character here. TEC, St. Peter's in Albany. Look forward to the on-going
inquiries.
10 minutes ago · Like
Philip M. Lewis I'm
"repenting" of my past. Those are confessions of where I've been not
statements of my commitments. ;-)
8 minutes ago · Like
Donald Philip Veitch Copy that re: you, but
also myself too. The MP/EP/Litany/HC takes us there.
7 minutes ago · Like
6 comments:
D. Philip Vietch ... still task master of the sharply pointed pen and fencing master of the word ... how the heck are you dear brother
+Del Murray
Phil .. did I sign in correctly or am I being held prisoner while the Parliament votes my fate ???
Holy moly, hot jacamole! Whoa! I'm fine. Very retired. Live a quiet and retiring life, although attend a few local classes. Unhappily ensconced in a TEC Church, but unobtrusively and without conflict. Who needs conflict? Ah, no Parliamentary prison for you, Del. Welcome. How the heck are you?
I am blessed beyond words but not retired .. that is aparently for the sinless ... we sinners must labor on until the we are cleansed from the Treasury of Merit .. or something like that :-)
I chuckled at some of the propositions put forward by poor brother Lavender before he played Jeronimo and bailed out. Poor lost soul.
How can you abide worship in a pagan temple ??? Oh .. wait .. their presiding says there is more than one way to get to heaven so I guess its ok that your a Christian and your in there ... ha ha
How do you post to this group ?? I never could figure out blogs !
I alone post here. Comments can be posted although moderated. Scholarly guest articles, ahem, hint, hint, ahem, would be entertained, for example, by you.
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